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Big Trouble

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OH Boy

09-23-2002 06:03:18




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Well I knew my engine ('47 2N) was gonna need some work but had hoped to make it until winter. I was discing my field Saturday afternoon when all of a sudden there was a loud knock in the engine and suddenly I had smoke coming out the breather tube. Still runs and doesnt knock (much) at idle. Knocks when revved up. I idled back to my parking area and shut her down.

Any guesses about what gave out? I am going to have it taken in for repairs but thought you guys might be interested in this and also might have some advice re: Overhaul vs replace engine vs rebuilt block.

What should an overhaul cost? I'm guessing it needs everything, bearings, pistons/rings/sleeves/, lifters, etc.

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OH Boy

09-24-2002 07:09:28




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
Ok you guys talked me into it. I talked to the little woman last nite and asked how she'd feel about a torn apart tractor in the garage. She said ok if it will save us some $$$.

I guess I'll jump in and do it, might need your help & advice.

Thanks to all!



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Kinky-OK

09-24-2002 03:46:10




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
I My 8N448938 that I have had for 15 years is like an old friend who has served me well over the years. I am going to do an overhaul this winter and I want to do it myself. I have the engine and hydraulic videos, the FO-4 shop manual, owners manual and with this forum I feel confident that I can do the job-- and have a heck of a lot of enjoyment during the gloomy winter weather while doing it--So can you!!

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David S.

09-23-2002 14:51:42




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
OH Boy,

Sorry to hear of your engine problems, but I'm a firm believer in fix it yourself too. I would suggest, in addition to tagging and bagging all the wires, bolts, etc. etc. - if you can get a friend or spouse to take photos or better yet a camcorder and video tape the removal and disassembly process - it's a great time saver at reassembly time. This is especially true when a few weeks (or months) elapse between teardown and reassembly. How wiring is routed or how clamps are positioned may seem dead logical now, but later the ol' CRS kicks in and photos are sure nice to have - or run the video tape ahead of time in the evening with a cold one and some popcorn. It's a great refresher; "...but Honey, I'm not sitting on my butt watching TV, I'm watching my 8N removal/diassembly video."

Good luck,
David

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David S.

09-23-2002 14:44:42




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
OH Boy,

Sorry to hear of your engine problems, but I'm a firm believer in fix it yourself too. I would suggest, in addition to tagging and bagging all the wires, bolts, etc. etc. - if you can get a friend or spouse to take photos or better yet a camcorder and video tape the removal and disassembly process - it's a great time saver at reassembly time. This is especially true when a few weeks (or months) elapse between teardown and reassembly. How wiring is routed or how clamps are positioned may seem dead logical now, but later the ol' CRS kicks in and photos are sure nice to have - or run the video tape ahead of time in the evening with a cold one and some popcorn. It's a great refresher; "...but Honey, I'm not sitting on my butt watching TV, I'm watching my 8N removal/diassembly video."

Good luck,
David

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Evil Steve

09-23-2002 07:22:09




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
You broke a piston. If you have someone else overhaul it PROPERLY and COMPLETELY, it'll cost you anywhere from $1000-$2000 plus parts.

If you do part yourself (i.e., give the mechanic the short block to rebuild - you do the rest) that'll cut it down to 1/2 the cost of labor.

Why not do it yourself? There is a decent overhaul video available on this and other sites. If nothing else, it'll help you see wht's involved in overhauling the tractor and gives you a good idea of what perts to replace/rebuild.

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Willy-N

09-23-2002 08:47:51




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 Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Evil Steve, 09-23-2002 07:22:09  
Man thats some big bucks for a repair! Bought whole tractors for less than that. Remember the rest of the tractor is old to why not use some older parts and save some money? You put all that into it and something else could go wrong with it. I just have a problem spending that much to do a repair. I'm not cheap but don't have that kind of money to spend so I do it the other way and it seems to work. If you get another 5 years of work out of it you can do it again later. Just a different point of view. Mark H.

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Evil Steve

09-23-2002 09:14:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Willy-N, 09-23-2002 08:47:51  
Mark-

I always try to answer the question(s) that is(are) asked. He wanted to know what paying a professional to rebuild his tractor would cost and I gave him an answer based on previous posts and my own inquiries.

As for using old parts on a STANDARD overhaul (as appears to be his case), I certainly wouldn't advocate used rings, sleeves, bearings, oil pump gears, gaskets, etc. He almost certainly won't have to replace his crankshaft, camshaft, pistons, etc., but maybe machine them. And if he does, used parts won't fit. He'll have to buy new to match. AND he WILL be back in there in a few years if his overhaul is not complete.

I asked whether he would consider doing the job (or at least a good portion of it) and suggested buying the overhaul video to help him save $ - perhaps he'll see how easy it is and do the job himself. I would. You would. Not everyone has the time, tools, facilites, and confidence to do it themselves.

As for the cost versus buying another tractor for the same $, you are part right. Yep, you can buy a decent N for $2000. And you can hope it'll be awhile before it too needs work. But it will eventually.

An axiom of buying old cars, old tractors, old whatevers is that you want to buy the car/tractor/whatever that someone ELSE has already spent the big bucks on. Or YOU will (with or without used parts).

For me and many, I like gettin' my hands dirty. I like the accomplishment of doing it right and cheap because I did it myself. Not everyone can.

Respectfully,

Evil Steve

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Willy-N

09-23-2002 09:39:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Evil Steve, 09-23-2002 09:14:01  
I never have paid someone to fix a engine for me befor so I am not sure what it would cost. I have heard horror stories off this site befor on prices for repairs. I have asked for a quote on a few repairs but the prices were so far out of line I could not comprehend the cost. I could buy a complete set of tools and lifts for some of what I have been quoted. I was quoted 800.00 to put a oil pump in my Bronco II once! I never changed one befor and did it my self for around 75.00 and it still holds 50 psi 2 plus years later. It took about a day to do the job and figured I made about 100.00 plus a hour doing it myself. It is a judgement call on tring it yourself but if you never try you will never know if you can do it. I do pay for machine work but I bring them the part for them to do it to and I have a repor with shop and they are honest to me. I just can't pay that much to fix a tractor of this size do to how easy they are to work on. Wish I had lots of money I would have one that is perfect and done right and my hands would still be clean and nice. But I just work my tractors and keep them running. I do have the tools and the shop. I quess what I have spent on those I could have had a lot of work done!! Mark H.

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OH Boy

09-23-2002 09:26:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Evil Steve, 09-23-2002 09:14:01  
I appreciate your take on it, Steve.

Just wondered how big a shock I was in for to just have it done by them that know better than me.

Generally I am a 'jump in with both feet' kind of guy, but this is deeper trouble than I have handled by myself before. Perhaps it is an opportunity to learn something new!



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Evil Steve

09-23-2002 09:46:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 09:26:43  
Bubba, it ain't that hard. Just takes some time, space, and a couple of extra hands to help with heavy stuff. It's deceptively simple to overhaul that tractor. Your only big problems will likely be stuck bolts. And deciding how good your rebuild should be.

I do not believe in doing half-a$$ jobs. I like to fix something correctly and move on with life for awhile. 75% of your overhaul is just getting TO what's in your block. Gotta lot of pressure washing, draining fluids, pulling off engine systems (generator, starter, etc, ad in finitem), labeling everthing as it comes off, keeping nuts and bolts in order so you know where they go, etc, etc, etc.

Wanna do that a few times? I don't. For me, EVERYTHING is going to be in top original spec condition and operation (including grinding the crank to next size and matching bearings to fit) or I ain't doin' it. I'm puttin' in a new ring gear even if I got some more life on te one I have. And I'm rebuilding the clutch because it's right there. I'm puttin' in new rings on every piston even if I had good compression on the non-problem cylinders. I'm lapping valves if they are useable - if not, I ain't buying used, I'm buyin' new.

'Cause I wanna only do it once for a long time. 'Cause I don't see the sense in doing a 10+ year quality overhaul only to have to split the tractor in 6 months to replace a clutch disk I coulda otherwise replaced in 10 minutes.

Yep, $ is involved and the only way to save it to do it yourself - just do it right if you are keeping that tractor awhile.

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Willy-N

09-23-2002 10:10:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Evil Steve, 09-23-2002 09:46:14  
Not to start a fight but why stop there? You replace everything to perfect nothing haft a$$ why not replace all the other worn parts on the tractor to new? The funny part is that 90% of the tractor is OLD around 50 years OLD and why have a new engine on a old tractor? There is nothing wrong with useing some older parts on it. Nothing wrong with grinding the crank and using new rings, bearing gaskets ect. that is the right way to do it. But going to the extream is a different thing if the part is still good with lots of years use left on it why change it? If you can get a part for 1/10 the cost that leaves money for new tires, fluid changes, radiator replacement, clutches and other parts that DO need replacing. I guess I look at things a little different. I have allways had older cars and trucks. Knew people with new ones that were in the shop a few months later and they had NEW Engines and Transmissions put together by the people who know how to do it right! These tractors have been used for allmost 50 years or more and the parts seem to keep going even tho some do break and need replacing now and then. Fix them with what they need to make it work and enjoy them. Like the old saying if it ain't broke why fix it? Mark H.

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Evil Steve

09-23-2002 10:26:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Willy-N, 09-23-2002 10:10:07  
Like I said, it ain't worth my time to have to spend several days tearing apart and rebuilding a engine or clutch over a part I coulda bought for a few bucks.

And it (his tractor) IS broke. Fix it right. Fix it to last.



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OH Boy

09-23-2002 09:07:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Willy-N, 09-23-2002 08:47:51  
I agree with you on that one Willy. Spending 2 grand on an overhaul seems like a lot of $, paid less than that for the whole tractor. Now, if its 1 grand, I could feel ok about that. I know whats involved, I have seen the price on overhaul kits, and there IS a lot of labor.

I'm not opposed to using used parts when available /appropriate. I'd consider putting in a used engine if I came across one and can determine it's condition is worthy. Just don't want to wind up in the same predicament again.

Per everyone's advice to do part of the work myself, perhaps I will, I'll have to think it over. The tractor is 30 miles from home, no shop there to work on it in. Guess I could borrow a trailer and fetch it home and work on it in the garage. Its heavier mechanical work than I am used to doing, although I do understand what is involved. I am just not set up well, no hoist, engine stand, etc.

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Willy-N

09-23-2002 06:24:14




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
If it dose not knock much under load but with no load higer RPMs it knocks loud it probley is Rod Bearings if you knock under load your mains are bad. If any knock at all a complete rebuild is in order just because of what you have to do to correct the problem. You could put a bandaid on it and it would just give you problems later.You may have had a piston go, check compresion and your oil and water for contaminates. Mark H.

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OH Boy

09-23-2002 06:46:27




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 Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to Willy-N, 09-23-2002 06:24:14  
Yes I surely had something let go in there. I think a piston broke given the smoke.

I did have some knocking (like you describe) previously when engine was hot and under load. I didnt think it was so severe that a rod would break. I have been just going easy with it hoping to make it until winter.

I'm not looking to do the 'bandaid' approach, I have learned that if you don't fix it right the first time around, you just get another chance.

The tractor is in pretty good shape except for this, repairing the engine will make it real nice.

Any ideas on what that ought to cost me? (So I know if I am being taken advantage of or not by the shop). I know that depends on a bunch of variables but assume complete overhaul, block still useable.

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Willy-N

09-23-2002 07:08:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:46:27  
My first tractor was a Ferguson TO-30 had a hole in the block, busted Camshaft repaired with used parts 500.00 used it for over a year never used a drop of oil and never had to do anything else to it. Sold it and the new guy is having fun with it and is having no problems either. It can be done. Mark H.



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Willy-N

09-23-2002 07:04:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:46:27  
Out of the box rebuilt engine long block around 1,700.00 but if you do it your self it should be around 700.00 with some machine work. If parts are damaged it will go up. Depending on where you get your parts that price will vary. Once you could have got a complete engine ready to go except gaskits for around 700.00 from me. Block if needed go for 150.00 up to ?? Cranks 100.00 up to?? Ebay has some parts but ask questions first on them if you are rebuilding a engine. If you got the money you can order from some of the fine parts suppliers on this site and have a new engine. Myself I would go for used parts because they have a lot of years left of good work in a lot of them and use new bearings and rings to make it right. Your call on the parts start looking around as soon as you know what is wrong. Mark H.

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BP

09-23-2002 06:18:30




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 Re: Big Trouble in reply to OH Boy, 09-23-2002 06:03:18  
Sounds like the traditional rod knock. Obviously don't start it again. It sounds like you didn't break the crank or a rod, so you may get out with a crank regrind, bearings, sleeves, pistons, rings, etc. Could be worse, with things poking out of the block!



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Dave OH

09-23-2002 19:58:01




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 Re: Re: Big Trouble in reply to BP, 09-23-2002 06:18:30  
Now this sounds like a real plan!
It is what most of us have done.
Not that expensive and will usually last as long as you are going to use the tractor.
Unless you are using it commercially.
Dave OH



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