Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Discussion Forum
:

Left my key on

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Babalouie

12-28-2002 00:49:46




Report to Moderator

Ran the gas out & forgot to turn off the key. Came back to find dead battery, cracked coil, fried diode and resistor. I recently gave the 8N a full tune up so I checked the points (not pitted) gap was on spec as well as timing advance. Front mount distributor w/ 12volt NH coil. I changed the coil , condensor, rotor, dist. cap and diode and checked continuity on all wires. It has an automotive 4 pole starter switch and the switch is operating fine. I haven't replaced the resistor so I jumped across it. I'm getting 12.5v through the coil to the condensor/points junction screw but no spark to the plugs. I checked continuity from junction screw to ground and bumped the starter. Continuity cycled on and off as engine spinned and I could get it to rest with points open or closed as I bumped it to different resting positions. I also check dwell at the junction screw to fine tune points but this time I was reading dwell so high it was off the scale (with resistor jumped). Should the resistor make such a difference? Even with voltage going to the dist.and points apparently operating correctly what is happining and what can I try next?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
It was the resistor

12-28-2002 21:28:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
replaced resistor with a ru-4 and it started on first crank.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

12-28-2002 15:10:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
Babalouie, ""I also check dwell at the junction screw to fine tune points but this time I was reading dwell so high it was off the scale (with resistor jumped). Should the resistor make such a difference?""

The voltage measured, as you discribed is "Phantom" (it only exists because your meter is across an open switch and allows a small current to flow) The voltage will be ~ (about) the same with or without the Ballast R, but measuring voltage across an open switch does not mean your circuit is operational.

Measure the voltage across the coil, with points closed = >11 volts without resistor. The voltage across the coil with points open is ZERO...

JMHO

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA)

12-28-2002 09:49:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
Babalouie..... .....the only way to read "dwell" on a frontmount distributor is to remove the distributor cap and rotor and put one of your dwell meter leads on the points wire connection and the other dwell lead on the frontmount coil input terminal.

Ya can't just connect yer dwell meter from coil terminal to ground. Or from distributor points junction to ground. You'll get full scale dwell every time. 6 or 12, resistor or not. Dwell meter gotta be "across" the coil primary. Understand?

Theres been a ration of short spring thingies underneath the frontmount coil and need to be stretched to make good reliable connection to transfer sparkies to the distributor rotor button. I'd check there because all of your other testing implies that you are getting the correct voltages down inside your distributor.

This doesn't give the new 12 volt frontmount coil a clean bill of health because you could still have a bad secondary. You can and should check coil continuity with an ohm meter.

Off tractor, put one ohm meter lead on coil terminal, and then on the bottom terminals, read resistance. One terminal (primary which goes to the points) should read about 1 ohm. 'Tuther terminal (secondary which goes to the rotor) should read about 7000 ohms. MAJOR DIFFERENCE..... ....Dell

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
David - OR

12-28-2002 11:43:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Left my key on in reply to Dell (WA), 12-28-2002 09:49:49  
A dwell meter measures the duty cycle of a varying voltage. If the dwell meter is capacitively coupled, and the ignition system has a ballast resistor, then one can measure dwell across the coil, across the ballast resistor, or from either coil terminal to ground. All of these points exhibit a varying voltage waveform. Some of the possible connections will read backwards unless the dwell meter leads are reversed.

If the ballast resistor is removed from the circuit, then it is no longer possible to measure dwell at one of the coil terminals, since it is now at a constant voltage.

I suspect that Babalouie got used to measuring dwell in a way that was accessible and "worked" for him. Once the ballast was removed from the circuit, this could have stopped working.

After re-reading his post, and Dell's, I suspect Babalouie was not actually reading voltage "through the coil", but rather at the high side of the coil. The seeming inconsistency between the two tests he did (continuity vs. voltage) together with the inaccessibility of the point side of the coil connection, supports that.

The most likely thing is what Dell said. Something wrong with the secondary system like the coil spring terminal, the coil itself, or the rotor/distributor cap.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
David - OR

12-28-2002 08:35:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
Leaving the key on will not melt the points, any more than leaving a light on in your house will melt the wall switch. The points (when closed) are a low resistance mechanical device, and there is no mechanism to build up enough heat to melt them.

(Points burn/wear in normal service due to the arc created as they transition from closed to open.)

I believe that the front mount distributor, by the nature of its design, has a very large dwell angle -- much larger than the side mount or modern cars.

A properly sized alternator anti-backfeed diode should not have failed in this situation -- otherwise it would have burned out the first time you turned the key on to attempt to start the tractor.

It is possible that the coil and resistor were damaged due to sustained heating, although the typical "Chrysler Ballast Resistor" should have tolerated this.

One could argue that a properly designed 12V conversion should survive the operator leaving the key on; it happens often enough. But I can imagine a conversion reusing the original 6V coil, original "infamous" ballast resistor, and then using an inappropriate dropping resistor might have resulted in burning the coil and "infamous" resistor.

It should not be necessary to change distributor cap and rotor because of this -- unless you felt like changing them anyway.

With the engine stopped and the engine sitting with the points closed, it should be impossible to get 12.5V "through the coil". The points are a dead short to ground when closed.

There is an open circuit somewhere between the place you are measuring and the points themselves -- perhaps taking everything apart to change the parts you described you broke a wire or connected something incorrectly.

I'm not familliar enough with the mechanical arrangement of front mounts to suggest the best way to trace where the 12.5V suddenly transitions to 0V, but that is the best way to proceed.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
BC Mike C

12-28-2002 10:20:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Left my key on in reply to David - OR, 12-28-2002 08:35:17  
David, when I joined this board about 18 months ago what you just said would have only been comprehended at a very basic level. Today the scary thing is I actually ( at least I think I do ) understand waht you are saying. It is a satisfying feeling to know that what ever happens to my 9N, folks like yourself and Dell and Zane and too many others to name, will help me get it running again. Thanks, BC Mike C

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave Smith

12-28-2002 05:11:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
You say you have a front mount distributer. How are you checking the voltage and dwell at the points? Has you're distributer been modified? What diode are you talking about? The one feeding the alternator? It sounds like you got a high voltage spike from some place.
Dave <*)))><



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Scott

12-28-2002 05:02:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
If the battery drained it should have burned the points and melted the coil, New Holland does not sell a 12 volt coil for a front mount dist., either it is an aftermarket, you have a 6 volt coil with an additional resistor along with the standard or it was a new parts person that sold you the wrong items. The auto. start switch is dangerous if the tractor is started while in gear, was there a reason it was not kept origional with the factory safety starter?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
BC Mike C

12-28-2002 08:11:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Left my key on in reply to Scott, 12-28-2002 05:02:49  
Scott, I just purchased a 12v coil from The Ford tractor place. It was made in Taiwan or Mexico. The pig tail was not long enough and needs to be extended. I put in a Dell prescribed Radio Shack resistor. BC Mike C



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan

12-28-2002 07:38:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Left my key on in reply to Scott, 12-28-2002 05:02:49  
Scott,
Are you sure New Holland does not sell a 12volt front mount coil?
I heard that you can buy one, I don't no if from "Tractor Supply" or where but I know people who have the 12 volt coil.
Jim



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike

12-28-2002 03:03:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Left my key on in reply to Babalouie, 12-28-2002 00:49:46  
Bab,

Sounds like your coil isn't working, lucky you, you were able to find a bad one with which to replace the one you fried. Try another coil, maybe you'll get lucky and find a good one. Good luck.

Mike



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy