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Mikes AC Electrical Question

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

02-27-2003 01:03:21




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Quote” I am trying to fix a problem at my Mom's house. One circuit has started to blow whenever she uses her iron. This outlet is also tied into the ventahood over the stove. I tested the voltage at the outlet and got 120. I had my wife turn on the ventahood and it dropped to 109 and sorta fluttered there."

Mike,
First... the Voltage should not drop period... As every one has suggested you have a high resistive connection between the Plug & Breaker Panel or a bad breaker (resistive)

Make sure that the VOLTAGE does not drop and you have found your problem. Dropping Voltage, as you describe, is very dangerous.. FIX it

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Claus

02-27-2003 15:42:25




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 Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 01:03:21  
I betcha the prolem with kitchen exhaust fans when they get a few years old is that the accumulate grease in the bearings and when the grease gets old it gets sticky. This causes the motor to drag and a dragging motor will draw excess current due to its lower impedance. Now when the iron is added to the circuit, it tripps the breaker. This is not rocket science.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Willy-N Right on!

02-27-2003 15:54:04




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 Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Claus, 02-27-2003 15:42:25  
Probley hit it in right on the nail! 15 amp circuit on 14 ga wire, grease ladden fan, other things on the cicuit also and the 1,100watt iron all ads up to a problem. dosen't take much to add another 5 amps on the line along with the iron. A lighting circuit at 15 amps should only have a continous load of about 12 amps put on it. Darn near what the iron draws. Mark H.



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Claus

02-27-2003 15:49:59




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 Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Claus, 02-27-2003 15:42:25  
To check for this condition, remove the filter and spin the blade on the fan. If it spins freely, it is not the problem. Gunked bearings will cause hard turning of the fan blade.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Willy-N Here not me saying it.

02-27-2003 14:46:01




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 Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 01:03:21  
Found this for you on the net since I was being question on what I was saying. Just tring to help. Mark H.
Technical Articles SureTest®
Frequently Asked Questions - Voltage Drop

By Harold P. Kopp

What is voltage drop? A voltage drop in an electrical circuit normally occurs when current is passed through the wire. The greater the resistance of the circuit, the higher the voltage drop.

How much voltage drop is acceptable? A footnote (NEC 210-19 FPN No. 4) in the National Electrical Code states that a voltage drop of 5% at the furthest receptacle in a branch wiring circuit is acceptable for normal efficiency. In a 120 volt 15 ampere circuit, this means that there should be no more than a 6 volt drop (114 volts) at the furthest outlet when the circuit is fully loaded. It also means that the circuit has a resistance that does not exceed 0.4 ohms.

What causes “excess voltage drop” in a branch circuit? The cause is usually:

1. High resistance connections at wiring junctions or outlet terminals, usually caused by:

poor splices anywhere in the circuit loose or intermittent connections anywhere in the circuit corroded connections anywhere in the circuit inadequate seating of wire in the slot connection on backwired “push-in type“ receptacles and switches. 2. The wire does not meet code standards (not heavy enough gauge for the length of the run).

What are the consequences of “excess” voltage drop in a circuit? Excess voltage drop can cause the following conditions:

1. Low voltage to the equipment being powered, causing improper, erratic, or no operation - and damage to the equipment.

2. Poor efficiency and wasted energy.

3. Heating at a high resistance connection/splice may result in a fire at high ampere loads.

At what % voltage drop does a circuit become hazardous? It is difficult to say at what point excess voltage drop will cause a fire, because it depends on how much current is flowing through the high resistance connection, what is the resistance of that connection and because many factors must be considered regarding at what point ignition will occur, e.g.:

1. Is the high resistance connection in contact with a combustible material?

2. Is there air flow to dissipate the heat?

3. Is the area around the connection insulated, so that heat cannot escape.

The NFPA reports [1] that from 1988-1992, there was an average annual total of 446,300 fires in homes, resulting in 3,860 Deaths and $4.4 Billion property damage. 42,300 (9%) of these fires were caused each year by Electrical Distribution Systems. The largest portion of fires caused by electrical distribution systems (48%) were caused by faulty fixed wiring, receptacles and switches.

Electrical Distribution Equipment Fires in U.S. Homes2

1988-1992 Average

Cause of Fire No. Of Fires Total Electrical Distribution System 42,300 (100%) Faulty Fixed Wiring 15,400 (36%) Switches, Receptacles, Outlets 4,800 (11%)

The results of an in-depth investigation of 149 residential fires caused by electrical distribution systems was summarized in an article by Smith & McCoskrie [2] . Of the fires occurring as a result of:

1. faulty fixed wiring - poor/loose splices, damaged connectors, improper installation and ground faults accounted for 94% of these fires.

2. receptacles and switches - loose/poor connections accounted for 59% of these fires.

3. Lighting fixtures - loose or poor connections accounted for 37% of these fires.

Most of these faulty circuits and receptacles could have been previously identified as hazards with a 15-ampere load test, and many of these fires could have been easily prevented.

The Philadelphia Housing Development Corporation requires contractors to perform the 15-ampere-load test prior to insulating existing homes with insulation blown into attic crawl spaces in older row homes. [3] Prior to instituting the test, smoldering fires were associated with half a dozen installations. The PHDC found that 70% of the homes flunked the 5% maximum voltage drop test with “a cluster around 6%”. The PHDC arbitrarily established 10% as an unacceptable voltage drop, beyond which the contractor must repair/replace the circuit prior to proceeding with the insulation project. PHDC has been using this criteria successfully for 2 years (no fires in 2,500 installations).

RECOMMENDATIONS

For power efficiency, the NEC standard of 5% maximum voltage drop is recommended.

From a safety perspective, because wiring connections in some homes deteriorate with time (particularly in homes that use aluminum wiring for power circuits), and do-it-yourself modifications may be less than professional, excess voltage drop is a concern because of the potential fire hazard at high resistance connections, particularly on circuits that power electric motors while occupants of the dwelling are asleep, e.g. air conditioners, refrigerators, furnace fans, exhaust fans, etc.

Some agencies arbitrarily set a maximum voltage drop criteria of 10% to be considered unacceptable and a hazard. The author believes that any voltage drop difference of >1% from an adjacent receptacle should be investigated, that any voltage drop difference of >2% from an adjacent receptacle should be considered a hazard, and that using a maximum voltage drop criteria of more than 8% (3% above the “efficiency” recommendation) is courting disaster. A 3% voltage drop (3.6 volts in a 120 volt circuit) at one connection with a 15 ampere flow develops 54 watts of heat - which can cause ignition under certain conditions.

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Willy-N

02-27-2003 06:43:22




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 Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 01:03:21  
The wiring should be designed for no more then a 2% volt drop when in use. You will allways have some volt drop when the circuit is in use. That is why you have to use larger wire for longer runs to make up for the volt drop when amps are being drawn on the circuit. Proper wireing would drop about 3 volts in use sometimes more during motor starting because the motor depending on the starting code letter can draw 2-3 times the running load when first turned on. Cheaper Chinese Electric motors are under designed and use more starting amps and run at higher temps so they seem to burn out faster under higher loads or lots of use. Mark H.

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

02-27-2003 12:16:04




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 Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Willy-N, 02-27-2003 06:43:22  
Willy-n, >>> Proper wireing would drop about 3 volts in use sometimes more during motor starting because the motor depending on the starting code letter can draw 2-3 times the running load when first turned on>>>

I don't know what they teach you in Electrician school, but speaking as an EE the initial loading current is >(greater than) an order of magnitude (10x) Look a the design Spec of a Square D breaker : resistive loading = XXX Amps for X Microseconds. The affect of loading is normally insignificant, unless the source can’t sustain the voltage (resistive). That is why the breaker is opening the circuit... Fire Hazard big time.

I professionally when through this issue in Spain where they don’t use designed breakers and use undersized wires. I was amazed by the Square D design Specs, but they are required for initial loading . It’s the reason that the 220 volt systems, in Europe, are prone to Fire

JMHO

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Willy-N another point

02-27-2003 14:30:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 12:16:04  
The AIC (Amp Interupting Capacity) rating of a breaker varies in different styles of breakers. Most house breakers are rated at 10,000 amp surge with out damage others can go as high or higher the 100,000 AIC in other if you short circuit a breaker the load is not right at the 20 or 15 amps designed for it will be up into the 10,000 amp range (split second load) depending on the type of short put on it. This can damage a breaker and cause it to trip at lower or higher loads that are put on it. It also can cause a high resistance on the contacts due to the flash. Look at a set of pliers you cut a wire with that was hot! So his problem could be in the breaker also and not the wiring if it has been short circuited befor. Breakers also have a time lag and a over amp lag wich means they do not trip right at 20 amps unless it is loaded for a while other times you can take a 20 amp breaker up to 30+ amps for a short time befor tripping it. That is why fuses are better one time deal then you get a new one. You also can get them for motors to cover the over load effect when starting. Another reason for fused disconects put on larger motors because breakers are not as accurate or dependable. Even with a motor starting contactor you still need the fuse protection to protect the motor. Lot a different things go into affect when wiring things up. That is why you call a electrician when in question. Never called a electrical engineer to fix anything befor. You asked for that one when you made the comment you made. Mark H.

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

02-27-2003 20:12:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Willy-N another point, 02-27-2003 14:30:09  
>>>Never called a electrical engineer to fix anything befor. You asked for that one when you made the comment you made. Mark H. >>>

Ok i asked for that, but ask youself why do bad connections result in burning out light bulbs?

He has a problem he needs to Fix....



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Willy-N

02-27-2003 21:01:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 20:12:12  
Have had a lot of light fixtures short life lamps because of the rivit in the base making the conection to the shell or center pin being loose and cause enought heat at the base to ruin the bulb. Common for a customer to tell me they keep putting bulbs in the same fixture all the time and I show them the discolord lamp socket. Another way this can happen is on a split circuit you can get a loose neutral and the path to ground will be thru the other lamps or devices and depending on the wattage of the other devices the voltage can go up or down. It will split the voltage 180/40 or 40/180 many combinations posible and burn out the lamps on the the high voltage side of the circuit. The reason I posted about voltage drop is because he probley will find it in all his circuits when he goes from no load to a loaded circuit. But he still need to check the circuit back to the panel for problems like loose conections or a bad breaker. Might even be a bad conection on the buss where the breaker plugs in or a loose neutral conection at the panel or where the wire hooks to the breaker. Just hope he dose not have a Zinco or FPE panel they love to burn up the buss in the panels and started many fires. They lost there UL rating a long time ago. Any one of those 2 panels should be changed out befor they start a fire! BullDog Push Matic and the cheap Chalenger Panels, Thin GEs is another bad breaker & panel that gives a lot of problems too. Square D is a good panel but they made a cheap Home/Line style not as good as the QL Square D Comercial panels they got there name from. I do have to say after trouble shooting electrical problems for 30 years I have seen a lot of different things go wrong and will probley see more too! Hard to trouble shoot over the net when you are not on the other end or know what the other person knows or is capable of fixing. Trouble shooting takes years to learn and they don't teach that in school nor do they teach you how the public can mess up a good wireing job fixing it them selves. I have seen zip cord hooked to range outlets run under carpets into plastic plugs nailed to the walls in houses. You never know what you will run into when you take the cover off a panel I allways close my eyes when I remove them, had them blow up as the cover came off because of wires being held in place by the cover, screws cut into the wire removing them from the holes. Once I put a scre into a panel that was missing one and the main feed was right behind the hole made all the lights dim right in front of the owner and a big bang when it happen. Nice rush learned to check first befor just putting a screw in a open hole that was supposed to have one in it!! Mark H.

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Willy-N

02-27-2003 14:11:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 12:16:04  
Sorry I am not a engineer only was a Licencen Journey Man elect since 1977 and a electrician for 30 years along with a Comercial Administrator of my own Electrical Contracting Company for 13 years. I did not want to bore people with all the codes showing what I am talking about. But to give you a idea what I am talking about #12 Copper wire is good for 20 amps Right? Now that is only for a set distance. Go to far with it and you will need #10, wire even further #8 and so on. So they came up with a formula so you could size the wire for the run and allowed a 2% drop max for branch circuits and 1 1/2 % volt drop for service entrance conductor for the Computed Load Calculation for the service. That gives you around a 3 1/2 % volt drop on the complete wireing circuit or aprox 5 volt drop from the meter socket to the plug with the circuit rated at 125% of the load or aprox 80% contiouse load rating max on the cir for saftey. Now I would quote the codes pertaining to this but not to many people have NEC code books laying around to look it up. Remember you are a Engineer I did the work pulled the permits and had it inspected! Mark H.

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Jim(S.E.Mich)

02-27-2003 05:19:45




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 Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 02-27-2003 01:03:21  
Mike;
some of the older houses have aluminum wiring.
Aluminum will corrode and the oxidation will cause a loose connection over the years. This is very dangerous. Make sure that all connections of the wire are tightened very tight.
I had the same problem in a house I lived in about 20 years ago. If the house was built or wired in the 50's or 60's 70's it is probably the aluminum wire.
Fix it. It can cause a fire and death.
Jim

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Upper Peninsula, Mich.

02-27-2003 17:25:50




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 Re: Re: Mikes AC Electrical Question in reply to Jim(S.E.Mich), 02-27-2003 05:19:45  
Jim. I found out a couple of years ago that there is a suave that you place on aluminum wire connections that prevents oxidation at the connections. I used some very heavy commercial aluminum wire from my generator building to camp using the above suave and so far no problem. Took some connections apart last year and found no problem, but maybe too early to test. Comes in a tube,is black and dirty stuff to work with. Ron

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