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Pushbutton Start Dislexia ??????

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Randall(AL)

04-16-2003 10:02:42




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Once you have converted to negative ground 12v "properly". How does the pushbutton safety interlock switch still work? On the positive ground system it "grounded" or fired the negative wire going to it from the solenoid RIGHT??? Now that you are negative ground how does the darn thing work. I guess the real question here is if I'm 12v negative ground and I hook to the same single post on my solenoid and one wire going to Push button switch will it start the same as before or what??? At the risk of sounding very ignorant I ask this question.....

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Randall(AL)

04-17-2003 06:20:08




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 Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Randall(AL), 04-16-2003 10:02:42  
Thanks for all the great replies. I am currently using a standard 12v car crankup procedure where I have a 4-wire solenoid with the ignition switch start position "firing" the ignition post on the solenoid thus completing the circuit. This works great no problems. The problem comes in with a five year old son that loves tractors and no Safety Interlock start button. This worries me somewhat and I'm trying to determine how to restore this safety mechanism.

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Get a 4 wire solenoid - jim cox

04-17-2003 04:56:21




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 Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Randall(AL), 04-16-2003 10:02:42  
get a four wire solenoid like Ford used in the late 1950s, you can hook one coil wire to hot, one coil wire to ground thru your tranny switch. two wires = one complete circuit path
jim



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Bob

04-17-2003 07:04:14




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 Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Get a 4 wire solenoid - jim cox, 04-17-2003 04:56:21  
If I recall correctly, those Ford solenoids had 2 small terminals..."I" and "S".

"I" = Ignition

"S" = Start

The "I" terminal is connected to a small auxilliary contact that provides a direct 12-volt source to bypass the resistor in your ignition circuit when the solenoid is energized.

A usefull choice would be a solenoid designed for dual battery camper applications. These have the coil wires connected inividually, and directly, to the small studs, and could be connected as described by Randall.

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Dell (WA)

04-16-2003 10:55:28




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 Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Randall(AL), 04-16-2003 10:02:42  
Randall..... ....just like your starter motor, your starter solenoid works positive or negative ground. 6 volt starter just spins faster with 12 volts on it. 12 volts on a 6 volt solenoid doesn't hurt eather...BUT...12 volts on 6 volt headlights go.....pooffftt. Its the gutts of your 12 volt alternator that requires NEGATIVE ground..... .....Dell



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Bob

04-16-2003 18:36:28




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 Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Dell (WA), 04-16-2003 10:55:28  
The internal circuit is indeed different between the original "N" Ford-style starter solenoid, and a modern 12 volt solenoid.

The original Ford solenoid had one side of the coil winding connected internally to the BATT post on the solenoid, and the other one was connected to the START terminal on the solenoid. When the start button on the transmission cover was activated, it completed the circuit from the solenoid coil to CHASSIS GROUND (Plus side of battery) and the solenoid pulled in, completing the high curent circuit to the battery.

Most modern 12 volt starter solenoids have one side of the coil connected to the mounting leg of the solenoid (Chassis ground), and therefore, require 12 volts from a starter switch to be applied to the START terminal on the solenoid to cause the solenoid to pull in.

The difference is NOT that positive or negative ground is used. The difference is in the internal circuitry of the solenoids.

There are certain 12 volt solenoids available that can be used with the existing starter switch on the "N"s, thereby preserving the neutral-start safety feature of the original switch on the transmission cover. Drop me an email, if you need sources and numbers.

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

04-16-2003 20:40:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Bob, 04-16-2003 18:36:28  
Bob..... ..there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change to any other starter solenoid in a 12 volt conversion, go ahead and use the OEM 3-terminal 6 volt 8N solenoid with the tranny safety interlock pushbutton. Works just fine, positive or negative ground, 6 or 12 volts..... ....respectfully, Dell

who sez: everything you say is true BUT really doesn't answer the original question



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Randall(AL)

04-17-2003 06:58:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 04-16-2003 20:40:13  
Dell, in this wiring schematic which would be wired exactly like it was originally. That is 3 post solenoid with one ign post that goes to push button start. When the pushbutton goes to chassis ground(pushed) and grounds that circuit it completes the start circuit of the solenoid regardless of pos or neg ground. Is this correct???? Keeping in mind we are currently 12v neg ground and the batt posts of the solenoid are wired accordingly. And I do realize that the electrics on the tractor don't care whether they are positive or neg ground but it took postive voltage from the frame before to complete this circuit. Now I will be grounding this circuit to make the "connection". For some reason this does not seem logical to me. I guess what I need to do is go out and put on the 3 wire solenoid, take a screwdrive and ground the ign post to the frame and hear the starter turn. Then it might not make sense but I won't be able to disagree with it then. Thanks for the info.

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Bob

04-17-2003 06:56:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 04-16-2003 20:40:13  
In over 30 years of converting older equipment to 12V, I've seen a fair number of burned out solenoids, so I've just gotten to the point I replace the old one with a 12-volt rated solenoid, and eliminate one possible problem. There obviously is a difference in the voltage rating of the coil, since suppliers specifically rate them 6 or 12 volt, so for the few bucks it costs, why not do the changeover properly and replace the solenoid with a 12-volt unit?

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

04-17-2003 09:40:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Bob, 04-17-2003 06:56:30  
Bob..... ...the 3-terminal OEM 8N 6 volt starter solenoid does just fine in intermittant duty (less than 10 seconds) when driven by 12 volts. And while your experience differs, preventing "call-backs" and charging the customer for the extra 12 volt solenoid is good business practice.

But by your logic, you should also change the starter to 12 volts. Which negates the 12 volt advantage of spinning the 6 volt starter faster for quicker and eazier starts.

As I pointed out, the original question had to do with effect of battery polarity on solenoid operation. Solenoid don't care, postive or negative ground works just fine, just like the starter doesn't care, positive or negative ground, still spins the same direction..... ..... respectfully, Dell

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Randall(AL)

04-17-2003 07:01:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Bob, 04-17-2003 06:56:30  
It has a 4-wire 12v solenoid now using the ign post going to the start position on the ignition switch. Works fine but it also cranks in gear.



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David - OR

04-16-2003 10:47:02




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 Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Randall(AL), 04-16-2003 10:02:42  
Solenoids have a set of contacts opened by a spring and closed by the magnetism resulting from a current passing through the coil.

The coil will produce a magnetic field regardless of the direction of current flow. The contacts will close regardless of the orientation of the magnetic field.

The electron flow and magnetic field orientation in your solenoid will be reversed when you make ground negative and the big post positive, but the contacts will still close when you energise it.

Think of a horseshoe magnet. One "prong" is "magnetic north", the other prong is "magnetic south". But either one will pick up nails.

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Dave OH

04-16-2003 21:42:23




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 Re: Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to David - OR, 04-16-2003 10:47:02  
I like that answer! No technical jargon.
Dave OH



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rbell

04-16-2003 10:27:08




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 Re: Pushbutton Start Dislexia ?????? in reply to Randall(AL), 04-16-2003 10:02:42  
Yup, the switch just closes the circuit



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