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Measuring Front Mount Ignition

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-25-2003 15:12:18




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Easy Measurement of the Front Mount Ignition primary using the terminal Block. Ignition ON … points ON (closed).. Positive Ground

Terminal Block: X = Term, ^^^^^^ = Ballast, letter = Ident.

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- - (A) X ^^^^^^^^^ X (B)

..... ..... .X (C)

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -

1. Black Meter Probe connected to Term C , Red Meter Probe connected to Frame (ground)

Results = ~ 6.5 Volts (battery)


2. Black Meter Probe Connected to Term C, Red Meter Probe connected to Term A

Results = If A has a wire connected to Ignition Switch, Voltage should be < 0.5V If A has a wire connected to Top of Coil, Voltage Should be > 3.5 Volts

3. Black Meter Probe Connected to Term C, Red Meter Probe connected to Term B Results = If B has a wire connected to Ignition Switch, Voltage should be < 0.5V If B has a wire connected to Top of Coil, Voltage Should be > 3.5 Volts


4. Black Meter Probe Connected to Term A, Red Meter Probe connected to B

Results = (Ballast Voltage Drop) ~ (about) 3 Volts is normal.

Results with Points Open = 0 (zero) Volts


If these Voltages are Correct the Voltage at the Top of The Coil will be ~ 2.8 Volts and you will have the "normal" ~ 3 amps @ saturation


Hope This Helps

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Rob

06-25-2003 15:20:43




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 Re: Measuring Front Mount Ignition in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-25-2003 15:12:18  
I DON'T HAVE A TERMINAL BLOCK ON MY FRONT MOUNT! But I read top-of-coil volts at the coil side of the resistor, unless I'm on the other side of the tractor then I read em on the coil.
Pretty easy either way. I have about that 2.8v too. Used to have a 4v drop across the resister but some of it was dirty connections on the resister itself.



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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-25-2003 16:26:07




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 Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount Ignition in reply to Rob, 06-25-2003 15:20:43  
Rob, The problem with measuring "ONLY" the top of the Coil is that it moves (changes) "VERY" little. The Ballast moves (changes) > 2X that and provides easier Trouble Shooting.

JMHO



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Rob

06-25-2003 16:33:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount Ignition in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-25-2003 16:26:07  
What do you mean it moves? It has two voltages, points open and points closed. Assuming the connections are clean and the wires good the voltage at the coil side of the resistor, terminal block or no, will be the same as the voltages at the top of the coil, no?
Restating the obvious, if the voltage at the coil side of the resistor is different then the voltage on top of the coil then the difference is due to poor wiring which should be repaired or renewed.

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-25-2003 18:07:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount Ignition in reply to Rob, 06-25-2003 16:33:53  
Rob, "voltage at the coil side of the resistor, terminal block or no, will be the same as the voltages at the top of the coil, no?"

Yes that is correct, but my point is that measuring the Ballast VD will find your problem very easy. You may not have a Physical Block but you must have the SAME test points.

The ignition circuit can be best discribed as operating like a balanced beam.... The Coil and its resistance are on One side.... The Ballast is on the Other. When additional Resistance is found in the Circuit (bad connector/bad Ignition switch) this resistance falls on the Ballast Side of the Beam and the Ballast adjusts (reduces)its resistance to compensate, such that the beam stays balanced. A small change in circuit current results in a large change in Ballast Resistance.

If you measure the Coil Voltage it will remain reasonably constant over the variable range of Ballast and that is normal.

The Voltage Drop Across the Ballast tells you
the "condition" of the circuit.

Hope that explains,

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Rob

06-25-2003 18:38:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount Ignition in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-25-2003 18:07:28  
Temperature is the only thing that changes the resistance of the ballast resistor.
Current flow through the resistor changes the resistor temperature, except for some relatively small change in R due to changes in ambient temp.
No current flow, no change in temp and no change in R.
And the changing resistance is the only thing that changes the voltage drop.
Hope that helps.



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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-26-2003 04:10:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount Igni in reply to Rob, 06-25-2003 18:38:54  
Rob, You Have it Almost Right!!
>>>And the changing resistance is the only thing that changes the voltage drop.>>>

The coil can only change its VD if Current Changes, resistance is constant at Saturation.

The ballast has "Two" dynamic variables... the Current change and the resulting thermal change of resistance. If the current in the circuit goes down... the Ballast Resistance also goes down. Simple Math should tell you that the VD
across that Ballast is MORE Sensitive.

You can lead a horse to water but.....

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Rob

06-26-2003 07:23:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mount in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-26-2003 04:10:03  
The only way the resistance varies is with temp. If the current value falls off the voltage drop drops because the current drops not because the resistance changes. E=IR Directly proportional it is. In the case of the ballast resistor there is an initial delta R, or change in R, due to current/temp thing but other then that, a change in I won't matter much.
As for the 'balance beam' thing, well this cicuit as any circuit, has the sum of the voltage drops equaling the total of the voltage applied. Stating the obvious; regardless of the voltage applied the voltage at the end of the circuit, ground, will be zero, ground. If a resistance drops, or 'shorts,' then with a constant voltage applied, that's a given, and the remaining resistances constant, that's a given, and now the total circuit R being less then the current will increase. I=E/R Indirectly proportional. That's why other stuff starts overheating, smoking and melting when one circuit component is jumped out or shorted.
You say 'the current in the circuit goes down ... the Ballast resistance also goes down.' When the ignition is closed and the points close the current increases from zero at the time the ballast resistance is lowest, it's cool. The voltage drop across the ballast and therefore the total resistance in the circuit is the lowest also, directly proportional. The current increases from zero to it's maximum, ballast temp increases, and ballast R increases so during just a second or two the current decreases until the ballast R reaches it's max value or just the opposite of what you are looking for, in cause and effect.
The only other times you will see the current decrease is when you turn off the ignition or the points open. The later isn't long enough to have any effect on anything. Surely you aren't going on about how the current decreases when a guy turns off the key.
Saturation is a solid state term that has no application to this circuit.
You say the ballast is more 'sensitive.' What does that mean? It's easy to see the change in the voltage drop across the ballast? Not really and it's not very much, certainly not twice the change on top of the coil. Interesting maybe but not worth much in troubleshooting the ignition circuit.
You say the voltage at the top of the coil moves 'very' little. It changes from batt volts, you note 6.5v, to 2.8v. That's a pretty big little. That's a bigger little (3.7v) then any change across the ballast. Otherwise you also say voltage at the top of the coil is 3.5v so that might be what is confusing you. Is it 2.8v or 3.5v? Who cares, you can live within DellWA's range. You throw in another number, 0.5v, so it's no wonder you are struggling with this. Forget all that stuff and start over.
I suggest you stick to the coil open/closed voltages and the ranges DellWA likes to repeat. Take your readings at either the top of the coil or the coil side of the resistor and forget the rest. You'll have it right and you won't get confused by that pesky <0.5v you seem so fond of.
If you do not have a good voltage at the top of the coil with the points closed then it's not a terrrible idea to start thinking voltage drops. The drops you should be concerned with will be caused by dirty, damaged, or failed connectors, wires, or components. Those will be voltage drops where no voltage drops can be tolerated.
Stick with it and you will get the idea eventually.
My tractor started real well at 70 degrees with 2.2v on the coil and a 4v drop across the resistor. 4v drop across the ballast is too much and I picked up 0.6v by cleaning the connectors on the beast. Now it serves me not to read the drop across the ballast because I have a healthy 2.8v on top of the coil or on the coil side of the ballast. I'm within DellWA's range and I'm happy. If I weren't I'd still be looking for the missing volts.

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-26-2003 10:48:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Front Mo in reply to Rob, 06-26-2003 07:23:14  
>>>You say the voltage at the top of the coil moves 'very' little. It changes from batt volts, you note 6.5v, to 2.8v. That's a pretty big little. That's a bigger little (3.7v) then any change across the ballast. Otherwise you also say voltage at the top of the coil is 3.5v so that might be what is confusing you. Is it 2.8v or 3.5v? <<<<

ALL voltages in my Posts are Static measurements using a Multimeter, with the Points Closed. Your theory is not inacurate but requires a Scope...

I have NEVER EVER said that the the Voltage at the TOP of the COIL.. to Ground is 3.5V... If you look at the Circuit it is 3.5V from the top of the COIL ...to the Metered Battery (C)

When you are Trouble shooting a faulty circuit
95% of the problems will be reduced current because of increased resistance caused by BAD Wire Crimps & Switches... (These devises do not increase current when they Fail)

6.5V @ top of Coil:
Kirchhoffs Law: "The Sum of the Voltage Drops around a DC series Circuit equals the Source or Applied Voltage"

IF you understand that LAW.. Explain your measurement of 6.5 V at the Top of the Coil, When the Point are OPEN. (Appied Voltage = Zero... Sum of VD = Zero) Perhaps you don't Know how to Measure Voltage Drops.

JMHO

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Rob

06-26-2003 11:53:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring Fron in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-26-2003 10:48:06  
Doesn't take a scope to read the volts on top of the coil, points open or closed.
I told you up front I don't have a terminal block ergo a C nor an A or B. Now you are talking voltage drop across the resister though. 3.5v sounds fine.
You're preaching to the chior about 95% of elecrical probs are poor maintenence and failed connections. I'm a clean, bright, and tight kinda guy. You take care of that and you can forget this VD stuff. Just check the voltage at the top of the coil or the coil side of the resistor TO GROUND. My tractor not having a teminal block and the resister being mounted in a handy spot I can easily do that. If the resister is mounted up under the dash it seems it would be a real pain in the tush.
You are way off on your points open comment. The applied voltage is not the zero as you claim but the full battery voltage, you say 6.5v...fine. You go on to say that sum of VD = Zero. That's wrong and the sum of the VD is 6.5v and that's what you read on the meter. It's clear you don't understand a VOM so I will 'spain this to you.
When you attach a VOM to a voltage source and back to the common, call it ground please...this is a tractor we be talking about, you are completing a circuit. The voltage drops will conform to the physics and will be the sum of the VD's in the circuit. The VOM has a very high R, relative to the circuit being tested...our tractor. The R is so high that it relegates the other resistances in our circuit to insignificance. In our case a ballast resister of around 1 ohm compared to the VOM internal resistance of say 50K. That is 50,000 to 1 so 50,000 parts of the batt volt are dropped across the meter and 1 part is dropped across the ballast. What that means is, effectivley, ALL the VD in that circuit is dropped across the meter. In our case 6.5v batt voltage is dropped across the meter and shown to you by da digets or da little pointer. The current flow is very low, it's there but low, because I is inversely proportional to R and our R is HUGE. Actually the E you read is more like 6.5v-(6.5v/50,000) but we don't sweat the small stuff and your Kirchhoff's Law is intact.
Cool huh?
I'm still hung up on the part where you said "The problem with measuring "ONLY" the top of the Coil is that it moves (changes) "VERY" little. The Ballast moves (changes) > 2X that and provides easier Trouble Shooting." Like I pointed out the change of 3.7v is bigger then any change you will see measuring from any side of the ballast to the battery or the ground or to the other side or to your ear. The 3.7v is like the total voltage you should see across the resister.
Anyway, put all that out of your head. Check it like DellWA says and the tractor will be fine and you won't ever have to get down on your knees and peer up under the dash and figure out which wires go where. You won't measure the voltage on the wrong post on top of the coil because there is ONLY ONE POST.
Cool huh? And you won't have to figure out where to put the other lead other then to poke it to ground.
Cool huh?
You can even do the top-of-the-coil-different-voltage test without a meter once you see that a spark of 6.5v is larger and scarier then a spark of 2.8v. All you need is a piece of wire, even baling wire will do.
Cool huh?

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Phil (NJ-AZ-SK)

06-27-2003 00:01:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measuring in reply to Rob, 06-26-2003 11:53:52  
Rob, You understand that you are measuring your own Meter current with the Points Open (I have posted the Ratio thing many times.. I tried a trick Question)... but you don't seem to understand what you are trying to prove by making that measurement.. or why it may not be a valid measurement, unless its an absolute (Like ~6.488 Etc) There are only 2 Conditions to prove in the primary circuit of the ignition coil:

1. With the points closed the coil will reach a Max current of ~ 2.8A @ 6.5v applied. This means that the top of the Coil (to ground) will measure less than (<) 3.0 Volts and more than (>) 2.4V.

2. With the Points Open Current flow through the "Coil" is "ZERO".

The meter, measuring itself, is an attempt to prove that the Coil is OPEN (has Zero Current) but the Coil is in parallel with your meter and a short in the dist of >50 Ohms will result in Coil current flow and a delta of ~1.4 Volts, from Battery. That is very hard to see when using an analog meter with current flowing in the coil.

Barbwire works, but what proves that NO current is flowing in the Coil? ... A Series Component VD!

Regards,

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Rob

06-27-2003 01:35:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Measur in reply to Phil (NJ-AZ-SK), 06-27-2003 00:01:43  
The only thing needed to be "proven' is that their is voltage on top of the coil. Using your "Easy Measurement of the Front Mount Ignition primary using the terminal Block" doesn't prove that. You just go ahead and measure your voltages at the block assuming that is all you have to know about the coil.
I'll take my readings at the coil.
Irrespective of your continuing snide remarks and insults I understand the circuit. You are spewing claptrap.

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