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Crack in block, HELP

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Rick

06-28-2003 10:07:21

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I was putting in the head studs and found the right rear could not torque to 55 lbs. I looked and saw this crack. If it was there before I started, I surely didn't notice it. 1) Did I do something wrong? 2) How do i fix it? Brazing?

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Jim.UT

06-28-2003 16:16:58

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

The pic (I hope)

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Ultradog MN

06-28-2003 15:21:53

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

If I may...
At one time I was a welder and worked part time in a big engine machine shop on a PT basis - on call, as needed etc.
We did a lot of repairs on cast iron blocks.
If that were my block I would vee it out real good
And BRAZE IT with a low temperature rod. (Blue flux coated)
You don't need some sophisticated cast iron rod to make a simple repair like that.
Find a competent welder who is good with a torch
and it is a rather simple repair.
It is not in an area that will warp or deform the block by getting a little hot.
Trouble with arc welding is that you have to pre and post heat most of the block. That causes stress points in the casting to relax and means you will most likely have to line bore it afterwards to get your main journals to be true again. $$
A helicoil will not fix it!
If you are anywhere close to Minneapolis MN contact me and I'd be glad to do that for free - you buy the rod.
Jerry

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Rob

06-28-2003 18:28:30

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Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-28-2003 15:21:53

You make it sound pretty easy Dawg. Glad to hear that because I'm looking to repair a radius rod cap.
I never could figure why guys look to weld that cast because it seems brazing would do a good job in most any case and get away from that preheat and all.
I'm convinced solder would fix a fair part of what some guys deal have to deal with like down around the drain petcock, oil pan drain, or stress points that will crack. I know Carrier AC uses 60/40 solder to finish up their castings and to repair those cast iron compressors they build. I might end up seeing how solder works out. It sure would be easy to work after the repair.
Anyway your post is real encouraging. Thanks.
I got a few questions if you don't mind. Can you use silflos on cast iron and if so is there any problems with that? What is the proper flux for brazing cast?

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Ultradog MN

06-28-2003 20:48:07

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Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rob, 06-28-2003 18:28:30

Rob,
I wouldn't use 60-40 or any lead based solder on your radius cap. You can solder cast iron but it just doesn't have the strength you are looking for. It will bend and deform.
Brazing or using a nickel welding rod would be much better. Brass has probably 5-6 times the tensile strength of lead solder. And it isn't as ductile. (Bendy)
I agree about not welding cast.
Some places it's good but it heat shocks the brittle cast so badly that unless you pre and post heat you're whole thing it just causes more grief than it's worth. Think about it. You're heating a very brittle metal (cast) in a very local area. Even your best new nickel rods are still melting at about 1900 drgrees. And that's the minimum. Cast just doesn't like shocks. Silfos is great if you're an AC man working on clean copper fittings but there are enough latent impurities in cast that using it without a good flux might be a problem getting it to flow/stick well. Ordinary silver solder (with flux)would do but it's about 4 times the cost of brazing rod.
And you still need oxy/aceteline (or at least oxy/mapp gas) so you might as well braze the thing.
I always loved to braze stuff. You can make it puddle right in there so nice and when you're done it will look like someone patched it. But it is a beautiful, elegant, trust worthy looking patch.
When you weld cast iron you end up grinding most of your weld away as if you were trying to hide what you done. I think brazing flux is made of borax. But don't quote me on that. I flunked out of chemistry. It looks like glass when it melts and is harder than he** to chip off.

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06-28-2003 21:28:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-28-2003 20:48:07

Oh I never said I wanted to solder the radius rod cap. Nah that thing needs to be extra tough. That might be the hardest metal on that tractor. It's some hard stuff I tell ya. A file hardly puts a shine on it, you have to work for it. I wouldn't weld it either but I might braze it. I don't have oxy/act so I was thinking it would be a bit easier to get to silflos temp then brazing.
Well I guess silflos is brazing just lower temp then brass. Still a 'brazing temp' if I remember right. I have a little rig that uses those small disposable tanks of map and O2 but it doesn't take long to use up a tank of O2. It might take two tanks to do that dang cap, dunno.
Just the regular brazing flux then huh? I was wondering if there was something special for cast. I've worked with a lot of silflos and I might try that on the rod cap. If I can get a good flow it just might hold. I've got the silflos and flux so I will probably give it a shot. I have some brazing rod too though. With my little rig I need something fast and at the lowest temp to get the job done.
The rod has a bend in it so I figure that needs fixed before I try anything. Just a tiny bend but it puts all the push on the cap instead of the base. Nothing will hold unless I get that straight.

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DON TX

06-28-2003 13:35:39

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

I have been talking to several experienced welders and there are new welding rods for cast iron. It's done all the time from what I hear. I live in a town that has @ 30% professional welders, it seems. A steel mill and 3 large cement plants keep 'em busy. Not to mention the growth spurt demanding metal buildings and fences. @ 1/2 my family have welded for a living at 1 time or another. I'm buying a 9N with a cracked block soon, and will find out if anyone knows what they're talking about. It has a 3-4" crack right below the drain cock. Hope thats all. If I can get her started long enough to find out what is all wrong, I can make a decision to keep or part.HTH
DON TX

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DON TX where r u , Rick

06-28-2003 15:22:29

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Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to DON TX, 06-28-2003 13:35:39

Don - I am 20 miles south of Austin. Where are you? Pls email me.

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Evil Steve

06-30-2003 08:54:58

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Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to DON TX where r u , Rick, 06-28-2003 15:22:29

not that ya asked, but I'm in NE San Antone.

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Dell (WA)

06-28-2003 11:36:18

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

Rick..... ...I know how that happened. HYDRAULIC PRESSURE.

You had some oil/water in your corner stud hole and didn't clean it DRY and when you installed your stud and tried to torque to 55 ft/lbs the stud pressed the fluid and hydraulic pressure cracked the corner of your castiron block.

As to wheather you can "fix-it", unless you are a master welder experienced in the intracies of welding/brazing castiron including the long time tempature control requirements and facilities to do it, I'd suspect "stitching" the crack with overlapping drilled and tapped screws will be your only viable repair option..... ..... sorry, Dell

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hydraulic theory wrong

06-28-2003 18:04:30

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Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Dell (WA), 06-28-2003 11:36:18

I checked the hole and it is not a blind hole, it is open to the water jacket below. The hydraulic pressure theory is a good one but in this case it is incorrect. I will check all blind holes in the future. Thanks for the reminder.

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Rob

06-28-2003 12:23:44

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Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Dell (WA), 06-28-2003 11:36:18

I don't know Dell. I was talking to a couple different machinists about pinning or stiching cracks just two months ago. I looked into it reading some articles and sales pitches.
My unexperienced but fairly well informed opinon is that that crack would probably spread again even if pinned. Pinning fills in a crack really nice and it is good in the middle of the block where you aren't worried about the crack being forced to spread open.
This particular crack looks like it will now spread apart whenever that bolt is torqued. Got to hold it closed from spreading sideways somehow. Once you get that done you can fill it any kinda way just for a gasket mating surface really, maybe to seal the water jacket; dunno for sure. Kinda odd situation ya know.
Heck of a crack though.

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Dell (WA)

06-28-2003 13:46:43

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Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rob, 06-28-2003 12:23:44

Rob..... .....going in "sideways" to force/close a crack with some sort of "jack-screw" scheme will require "precision X-Y axis milling machine drill work" to accurately place any drilled holes and will probably NOT WORK because there won't be enuff "meat" in the block's castiron outter waterjacket to successfully hold any reasonable strength repair screw threads.

Sometimes you can salvage that cracked block hole (if it didn't go thru to the water jacket) by re-tapping to next larger size thread ...ie... from 7/16-14 to 1/2-20. 1/2-13 would not be recommended because too eazy to "cross-thread".

Using a "heli-coil" to re-thread to 7/16-14 might be "iffie" because you'd need to drill and tap for 9/16-14. (not certain they make such a size?) Using a "Klien-zert" would be better because the outside thread pitch doesn't have to match the inside thread pitch like heli-coil does but it takes a larger hole to stake it into.

Our friend "Rick" just may have a $500 boat anchor..... .....respectfully, Dell

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PloughNman

06-28-2003 14:14:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Dell (WA), 06-28-2003 13:46:43

Hey Dell-
Just a word of caution on threads in cast iron- they work best when coarse threads are used. Steel is ok for fine threads, but cast iron holds well with coarse threads. That's why all of the tapped holes in your block are coarse ( NC ) i.e. 7/16-14; 1/2-13; 3/8-16; etc.

Respectfully
Tim

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Rob

06-28-2003 13:54:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Dell (WA), 06-28-2003 13:46:43

Yeah it probably all depends on if there is some meat to tap into so you can hold the corner on that block.
Maybe you can braze it. That should be pretty strong with respect to the crack spreading sideways. So long as the guy does it right and gets a good flow into the crack, like 100%.
Be worth a shot. Find somebody that can braze and not just a welder willing to to run a bead with a brazing rod.
Boat anchor huh? sheesh.

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Wow! Rob

06-28-2003 10:27:29

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

That's some crack you got there. I think you can get away with solder even but either way I would want to come from the end and drill and tap one to two small diameter holes and run a couple bolts in there to pull that shut. Being on the corner you might be able to do that.
Flux it up, pull it closed hard and solder it shut. Kinda neat how that works out on the corner like that.
You might not even have to solder it that way. You can peen a crack shut if they are solid and fairly tight.

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pic is in Parts Pieces

06-28-2003 10:11:39

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

I do not know how to get the pic to post in the msg. It is in Parts & Pieces to the left. 40 Ford 9N, crack in block.

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the pic (I think)

06-28-2003 10:08:52

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Re: crack in block, HELP in reply to Rick, 06-28-2003 10:07:21

the pic I think

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