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Tractor sideways on a slope

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Rob

07-14-2003 07:34:33




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Gotta lot of bar ditch to mow, something over 1 1/5 miles. Haven't mowed some because of slope but I've gotten to where I get most of it.
I replaced the adjustable, but rigid, top link with a 28" long loop of 1/4" chain and the rig handles so much better. I don't have the weight of the hog tugging on the top link rocker so no more bouncing of the front wheels. The weight of the hog is mostly on it's tail wheel and if I raise the lift arms some it moves even more weight onto the tail. Big difference in handling and the hog follows the terrain way, way better.
Anyway I got to thinking that in all my years driving along all those miles of bar ditches and seeing all those mowers I've never seen a tractor rolled over in a bar ditch and I decided to get more aggressive mowing my bar ditches.
Well most of the slopes were no big deal at all 'cept I'd slide sideways in the seat. When I got to some of the more radical slopes I discovered the N will slide sideways long before it tips sideways. I got to where I could hold it on a slope with the uphill brake. I've had to stear uphill on some less radical slopes before but never seen sliding like this. The front end would try to swing/slide downhill but I could hold it with the brake. So now I have some really nicely mowed bar ditches.
I gotta tell you that loose top link chain loop is great. I hung that hog, I'm mowing pretty short, and one of the rear wheels would just spin. I don't have the draft control pulling on the top link so all the pull and all the weight is on the lift arms below the axle. The center of gravity stays way low. I'm pretty certain that is why the tractor handles the sideways slope so well. Added benefit is I don't have the draft control hydraulics consumming hp to raise the hog against the pull of the top link, I don't want it doing that anyway! I want the back end of the hog to be able to drop and follow the terrrain. It can and does with that slack top link loop.
I didn't like a 31" loop because the hog would hit the rear wheels if the lift arms went way up. The 28" slack top link lets me raise the hog and mow about 12" high while the weight is still on the tail wheel and the hog is still fairly level but the hog doesn't hit the rear tires. That's handy when the grass is heavy and high. I can't raise the hog entirely off the ground though. No big deal for me because I'd stopped raising it off the ground long ago because it made the front end too light. That hog doesn't need to be up in the air; it trailors just fine on that tail wheel.

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Richard Fazio

07-14-2003 18:21:33




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
Rob, I was just mowin' a bunch of acres with a JD hog on the back of my N. I do get bouncing and a lot of scalping. I like your idea. I may try it or a variation of it. I'm not doin' any steep slops but my land does roll up and down. I also would love to get rid of the bouncing.



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Rob

07-14-2003 19:26:05




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 Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Richard Fazio, 07-14-2003 18:21:33  
That loop chain loose will stop that stuff and the hog will ride up and down on the tail wheel. You'll like it.
My rigid top link always ended up at 25" center to center and my loop is 28" center to center so it has that much play. Makes ALL the difference.
I tacked a cat 2 to 1 bushing inside the loop so the chain doesn't wear the top link linch pin in the rocker and it stays centered and off the rocker. I put another bushing around a pin on the hog and just leave it and the loop on the hog all the time. I didn't tack that one.

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Richard Fazio

07-15-2003 05:55:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 19:26:05  
Rob, after reading your post I was looking at my hog. I've got a JD 506 I think it is. It's got a connection for the top link that has a slot in it which allows about 12" of travel. It will do the same thing as your chain. I've just been using it wrong, taking up the slake with the top link. I'm going to try loosening it way up and see if it works the way you discribe. I can see one possible problem before I even try it. When you come to a big rock or stump you want to lift the hog over your not going to get the same height you would with a solid link. My field is kind of rough. I'll give it a try though and let you know how it goes.

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Rob

07-15-2003 06:23:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Richard Fazio, 07-15-2003 05:55:12  
Yep, I bet that's just what that slot is for. Seems most maybe all hogs come with a top link rig that is not rigid and will allow the tail wheel to move up and down following the terrain. Hope it works out good for you.
If mine came with it then it was lost a long time ago but the chain is working out real well.



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Salmoneye

07-15-2003 06:18:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Richard Fazio, 07-15-2003 05:55:12  
The 'U' shaped connector on most new hogs is exactly for what you think it is...Just leave it a bit loose when you adjust the toplink and it will follow contours just fine, but still have the added protection of the rigid toplink if you get in deep doodoo...

The 'U' is available from all makers as an addon if you don't have one...

Chain is just...Oh...Never mind...No one listens anyway...



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Rob

07-15-2003 08:58:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Salmoneye, 07-15-2003 06:18:18  
The new Bush Hogs on the lot have that U-shaped connector and it looks to give 8" to 12" of slack the way they are suppose to be set up. The F/NH guys says don't use a top link if you don't need to raise the hog.
I wouldn't go that far because without some top link and if for some reason the arms do lift the hog will contact the rear tires when the arms get up high, I don't want that happening. 12" of slack is way too much because 6" of slack lets the hog contact the tires but 3" works great.

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Salmoneye

07-15-2003 12:55:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slop in reply to Rob, 07-15-2003 08:58:55  
What I wrote was:

"Just leave it a bit loose when you adjust the toplink and it will follow contours just fine"...

I said a bit...Not to adjust the toplink so that it can travel 12 inches...



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Rob

07-15-2003 13:35:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a in reply to Salmoneye, 07-15-2003 12:55:17  
That's not what I set it at, that's what the mfr allows for. I guess the way to make it right for whatever tractor you're using is to raise the hog until just before it hits your tires and then adjust the top link to stop it there. I haven't seen a manual spell it out, they just like to show a diagram of it it hanging there near straight down. Not too many hog manuals online though. Seems like they should mention the hog hitting the tires.
I'm thinking guys set it up like the diagram, they raised it up, it hit the tires, and they tossed the u-bracket without thinking to shorten the adjustable top link. Dunno.
The N and my hog would be something between 28" and 31".
A cat 2 tractor might be closer to being able to use the entire 12". I know the Land Pride diagram shows it set up close to 12". Fazzio's JD allowed for 12". They give you all that and you need to shorten your top link to make it right.
I can't use one of those u-shaped pieces unless it's bent with an offset. The top hitch on the hog is too narrow. But now thatt I've confirmed the utility of slack in the top link and understand how it needs to work for my type of mowing I got to thinking how to put something in there like that U piece. I just about have it worked out in my head.
I don't know how many hp the pump pulls but I can hear the load on the tractor just sitting there raising the hog. Gotta be at least a couple-three hp that I can use better cutting grass then reacting to a tug on the top link. I need maybe a quarter throttle to get the arms to lifting the hog. Half throttle or so to get it up there. That's a lot of hp. Without the hydraulic demand created by the top link pushing/pulling on the control spring that 2N did a LOT better job getting through the heavier grass.
I was proud!

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Please be safe...

07-14-2003 13:16:51




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
...so the vice prez at the bank you scammed on the blade has someone to persue for his money!



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Rick H. Ga.

07-14-2003 12:37:32




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
The risk of a tractor rollover/turnover should be avoided/minimized as much as possible. If the upper-most real wheel starts spinning, the angle is too dangerous. I'm with the others, if it feels uncomfortable, don't do it. I've mowed some pretty steep banks and I shiver to think about it. The older I get the less risk I seem to want to take. Rick H. Ga.



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Rob

07-14-2003 13:27:31




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 Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rick H. Ga., 07-14-2003 12:37:32  
You know a big that makes the issue with a rigid top link so clear is when you get to the intersection and come out of the ditch and onto the road. The tractor is headed up the side of the ditch, not a real steep thing but the front wheels come off the gound everytime.
A loose top link eliminates that situation because the rig flexes. And you don't have all the weight of the hog in that sudden pull on the top link. THAT'S scary.

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DallasGa

07-14-2003 12:37:18




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
Ha Rob, Great idea,I'd remove the ORC for extra measure of safty.



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souNdguy

07-14-2003 12:03:30




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
By using the flexible toplink (chain), you are essentially running the hog like a pull style mower.

Jeb is correct that you loose the 'protection' benefits of the toplink when you use chain.. however, the comment about adjusting the toplink loose and using limiter chains sounds like the best of both worlds.

Also remember to use an ORC on that pto...

As for the slope... I guess that is a personal comfort thing.. but for me.. if the slope is enough to slide outta the pan seat, and the front end is constantly hunting/sliding... that is just a little too much pucker factor for me... doesn't seen to allow any 'fudge' should an emergency arise, as you are aleady 'struggling' for navigational controll anyway... again.. my opinion...

Soundguy

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jeb2n

07-14-2003 09:52:18




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 Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to Rob, 07-14-2003 07:34:33  
I still don't like the idea of replacing the top link with chain...the toplink will add traction to the front wheels if the implement hits something, and it keeps the tractor from flipping over BACKWARDS. The only time i saw an N over sideways was when the ditch gave way under the left rear tire and it rolled over.

Also, the center of gravity hasn't changed by removing the ridid toplink. and if you're running the bush hog, your pump is still pumping anyways, so you haven't changed the horsepower that much, either. If given a choice, I would get a turnbuckle style toplink and adjust it to where the front of the bush hog is slightly higher than the back so as to help avoid bouncing. Your front end shouldn't bounce as long as the top link is connected and the hog is on the ground. I can't see why the "sway" of the hog would be affected either.

short story: I just prefer to have that toplink on there. If you really don't like it, i'd get some limiter chains and just keep the touch control lever all the way down. It accomplishes the same thing, but still retains the toplink.

My $0.02

Above all, be SAFE! Especially on hillsides with no toplink (just ask the old fordson guys that had do use horsedrawn equipment with their tractors which is basically what you're doing. Many a Fordson had "Prepare to meet thy God" written on it and for good reason.)

-Jeb2n

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Rob

07-14-2003 13:18:56




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 Re: Re: Tractor sideways on a slope in reply to jeb2n, 07-14-2003 09:52:18  
I use limiter chains and there is no demand on the hydraulics at all therefore more hp for mowing. If the grass is too heavy I just raise the quadrant and the front of the mower comes up 12" while the tail wheel stays on the ground. I mow at maybe 10" and I don't even have to look back to set it, it just happens. Engine picks up speed and I push the quadrant back down, don't even have to look.
You might want to rethink that deal about if the hog hits something and hangs the top link adds traction to the front wheels. That applies ONLY if the top link is in compression. IF there is a pull on the top link then the reverse occurs and the front of the tractor comes up instead. Backwards flip as a result of pulling from the top link rocker arm. Happens real fast too. You can avoid the entire situation by loosing the rigid top link. A hog isn't a plow and you don't need hydraulics and a rigid top link to push it INTO the ground, the hog will stay ON the ground if you let it. It mows just fine pulling it around.
You mention the front won't bounce so long as the hog is on the ground. You're talking tail wheel now. With the rigid top link the tail wheel is on the ground when the tractor is level or on a rise. When the tractor tops a rise or the front dips the rigid link will raise the tail wheel and if it leaves the ground you have a light front end. A loose top link prevents most of that. The hog is not rigid to the tractor and the tractor can be going downhill while the hog is still on flat ground without lifting the tail wheel. The opposite is also true and the hog isn't forced down hard when the front of the tractor starts up a slope. The hog isn't a plow and won't just momentarily go 'deeper' into the ground, there is no where to go.
With a rigid top link if the tractor heads up a rise the top link forces the hog down hard. Puts a LOT of compression on the top link. More then the pump can handle because it can not really do a thing about it. It can't force the hog into the ground 'deeper' as if it was a plow. That compression on the hydraulics is one of my greatest concerns. Something has to give. I don't want that intense pressure on my control spring or the downward force on the deck or on the tail wheel.
All this is not so pronounce when you mow pasture and other relatively flat ground. My situation with the bar ditches and coming in and out and manuvering around culvets and the changing grade makes it really an issue. Now I am not scalping near as much, the hog follows terrain rather then laying out parallel to the tractor. The tailwheel doesn't come off the ground because the entire rig allows flex and its a lot better set up with much less strain on the running gear.
The Ford Operator's Manual notes that "on hillside work the offset straight pull or offset angle pull may be used to hold the tractor on the slope....and may be easier to steer the tractor." That is exactly what I have found.

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