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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Valve lapping, latest verse

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Rob

07-23-2003 19:35:15




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Lapped and set the valves, the mushroom split-guide type on this 2n. Hot compression with the throttle and choke full open is more then 100psi on all cylinders. Up from 75psi on 2 and 90psi on two so I feel good about that work. It still smoked way too much.
Tried a wet compression test and it didn't show any improvement until I happened to got one done really quick and I saw the compression jumped up to 125-130 but only for a second. Seeing that, I retested wet and hurried after I put the oil in and I saw 125psi or more on each cylinder but it didn't last for 5 puffs and the pressure was back to 100 or so.
Pulled a piston and the oil ring is worn to nothing. Hardly larger then the piston. But if you don't hurry a lot on that dry/wet comp test you can't see that jump in pressure!
So that test can throw at least one curve. Without the 'hurry' I was getting 100+ dry and wet which says the pressure is in spec and indicates the rings are ok.
One thing that might be an indicator the test is unreliable is that during the dry test it took more then 5 puffs for the pressure to get to the max and stabilize. I was counting 7, 8, 9 puffs before I saw a stable pressure. Before I did the valve work the pressure stabilized in 5 puffs or less.

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Bob

07-25-2003 08:16:47




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 Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to Rob, 07-23-2003 19:35:15  
From where your sitting, (with the pistons out), why not get a piston and sleeve kit (includes rings) for $130 to $250 and do the job right? If you deduct the price you are paying for a set of rings from this price, it should look downright cheap! If you have a significant ridge at the top of top ring travel, the bore probably has a lot of taper from bottom to top, and will only continue to wear your new rings and the old piston ring grooves, As far as the rod bearing with excessive clearance, hunt down a .001 or .003 UNDERSIZE bearing insert, and verify the clearance with plastigauge.
Check it in several positions, as the crank is no doubt out of round, and make sure it is not too tight at the tightest point.

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Dell (WA)

07-23-2003 20:01:48




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 Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to Rob, 07-23-2003 19:35:15  
Rob..... ....its the stable pressure that counts, NOT the flash jump in pressure (which is usually caused by TOO MUCH OIL), and if'n it takes 10 puffs to stablize, so what? I've known too many "novice shadetree mechanics" panic because they couldn't stop the engine fast enuff for a 1-puff compression reading, and complain that they have low compression. They done it wrong. Ford compression specs: 90 psi min (dry)

If'n you really wanna check your rings, ya gotta do a leakdown test, which takes specialised equipment and external airpressure source.

As long as your engine starts, runs, and doesn't oilfog the neighbors mosquitos, I'd leave it. Ya can buy alotta oil for cost of un-necessary engine rebuild..... ....Dell

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Rob N Va

07-23-2003 23:34:01




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 Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to Dell (WA), 07-23-2003 20:01:48  
Not for nothing, but if you lapped and set the valves, what else could be causing it to blow smoke? Kind of a process of elimination there...no fancy equipment needed.



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Rob

07-24-2003 02:11:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to Rob N Va, 07-23-2003 23:34:01  
The comp test I did before the valve work showed bad valves; low pressure with no big difference between dry and wet. After the valve work I got the same results, no difference. Like you said, elimination said it had to be the oil rings.
I'll put in a set of rings and see how it tests.



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David - OR

07-24-2003 07:32:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to Rob, 07-24-2003 02:11:55  
Generally speaking, three ring pistons are designed so that the top two rings provide compression sealing and the bottom ring is primarily to assist in oil control. Even brand new, the three-piece oil ring does not have a lot of obvious tension, and it is normal for it to look like it is "worn away to nothing". Low compression could only be caused by issues with the top two rings -- not the oil control ring.

Replacing the rings is cheap and easy, once you have the piston out. You have evidence of poor oil control from the smoking, though this could be coming from worn valve guides or valve guide seals. Presumably you checked the stem clearance as you were lapping the valves.

Check the side clearance between the new rings and the ring lands in the piston. A lot of times, the piston is badly worn in this area. New rings will have trouble sealing if the side clearance is excessive. New pistons are fairly cheap.

Check the piston to cylinder clearance with a feeler guage. Check the ring end gaps as well. Out-of-spec piston clearance may be uncorrectable bacause of wear in the sleeves, but you can live with that in a "quick and dirty stop the smoking" rebuild. But you might consider buying oversize rings and filing them down to correct the end gap, rather than living with the excessive gap likely to result from putting new stock rings into worn sleeves.

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Rob

07-24-2003 08:08:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to David - OR, 07-24-2003 07:32:18  
Hey David. The skirt clearance is at, worse, .003 beyond the .004 spec and I'm just not too concerned with that.
The compression at 100+psi hot and dry is good for me but I can't know the ring side clearance until I get the new rings. There is a lot of clearance in the old top ring for sure. I'll keep my fingers crossed until I get the new rings.
The FO-4 is ambiguous about that ring side clearance. Way I read it in one place it says renew the piston at .004 and then a few paragraphs later it gives a much tighter spec. I imagine I'll try them out no matter what I end up with.
The end gaps on the old rings is ok so that isn't an issue at all.
The valve guide clearance was very loose but I don't think that is the reason for smoke in this flathead. If the rings don't cure the smoke then I'll replace the guides I suppose. A note on that is that the valves stems were ok, it was the guides that were worn. There aren't any seals on this ol' thang, it's a 2N.
Another note on the FO-4 is that the bearing clearance is the 'widest' area of the plastigage. Now I would have though the narrowest area would be what a guy needed to look at.
I do have one rod bearing that is more then .006 while the others are, according to the FO-4's way of reading the plastigage, ok; within the wear spec anyway. Some taper but not so much I'm going to sweat it.
Just setting down to order the rings and a bearing. Everything goes well I'll have this 2N in shape for many more years of mowing and blading on my spread. Maybe 100 hours per year. I'd do it different if I was making a living with that tractor. Hopefully when I get it buttoned up this time she will be good to go, and not smoking the place up. It was burning more then a quart per hour so it was coming up on $100/yr just for smoke.
This entire deal is going to come in for less then $200, maybe like $150, and that includes tools like the spring compressor, lapping stick, crowsfoot wrenches and a couple others; supplies too. The $200 would include of pair of valves and guides that probably didn't need to be replaced.
Thanks for the input.

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David - OR

07-24-2003 17:14:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest vers in reply to Rob, 07-24-2003 08:08:36  
There's nothing wrong with an "economy" rebuild. It seems more fitting to these tractors than a "no expense spared" policy -- that's how the old farmers maintained them. I put in all new sleeves, pistons, rings, and bearings, but kept the original valves and passed on getting the crank turned and the head surfaced. I'm happy with the results.

As I found it, the engine had no valve stem seals at all, but the guides were tight. I put 4 new stem seals on the intakes and struggled to get the square edged seals past the square edged lip on the bore for the guide.

I tend to agree with you that it seems unlikely that manifold vacuum would pull a lot of oil uphill past the guides on a flathead. But it may be possible if the situation is bad enough.

A couple more checks to consider when trying to find the source of the smoke:

If the smoking gets worse under load (low vacuum), it's rings. If it gets worse at idle (high vacuum), it's the guides. Also, pull the breather cap off and see if the crankcase is under a vacuum at idle. Really bad guides will do this. If, on the other hand, there are puffs of blowby out the oil fill tube, you can suspect ring leakage.

The side clearance on the 4-ring pistons in the original engine was very high (.020+), so I opted for new sleeves and pistons even though the originals looked OK visually. The rebuilt engine is nice and tight -- no smoke or blowby and good power.

I don't see anything inconsistent in the FO-4 manual about side clearance. Paragraph 34 on page 31 gives a wear limit of .004. Later on (page 32), it gives a new spec of .0015 to .0035 for the top ring, .0015 to .0025 on the second ring, and .0015 to .0030 on the oil control ring. The top ring is the most important one.

I'd probably let the side clearnace go up to about .006, but too much more won't seal properly -- a lot of the sealing comes from combustion pressure getting behind the ring and forcing it into the cylinder wall. Too much side clearance and it will just blow out the other side. Your compression rings also provide a good deal of your oil control, and if they don't seat under power, the engine will smoke.

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Rob

07-24-2003 19:03:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest in reply to David - OR, 07-24-2003 17:14:30  
Yeah that makes the rings all the more suspect. The smoke at idle and load and blowby anyway.
Right now I'm a bit concerned with all the honing I'm having to do on the sleeves. I'm sure the iron sleeves have plenty of mat'l but they are worn pretty deep near the top, about 3/8" to 1" down. I'm going to be removing more then .001 but probably less then 002, I hope anyway. That will make the skirt fit more loose then it already is. I'm hoping my saving grace will be the low rpm. I can always replace the pistons later. I'm sure this work will make a big difference in any case. The valve lapping made a real difference anyway. I did a first-cut mowing of grass, no weeds, up over the front axle, heads to the top of the hood and she just bore down and got through it. Very few places did I have to raise the 5' hog and the blade was set at less then 4". Only had to raise it a few inches when it did try to stall. Smoked a lot but I was happy with the power. She ran without a complaint for hours on that day and it was 105 degrees when I went in for a break. There was one complaint but I was scalping new-plowed dirt 4 or 5 inches deep 4' wide for about 15' and she got a little hot but I can forgive that. I knew it was time for a break when I did that.
Oh, and this isn't a 'rebuild' it's a 'repair' thank you very much.

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david - OR

07-25-2003 08:24:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, lat in reply to Rob, 07-24-2003 19:03:37  
The farmer I drove tractors for as a kid considered "new rings" to be all he needed to do to keep his Massey Harris on the job raking hay and moving manure. Even as a 14 year old, I could tell a big difference in the tractor after the re-ring.

The top of the sleeve is the primary wear area due to compression pressure against the top ring. No surprise the sleeve is worn to a bell-mouth. Squaring it up is more important than maintaining skirt clearance -- I wouldn't worry about taking off .001 or .002.

The top ring has more trouble following a bell-mouthed sleeve -- spring pressure alone isn't enough. It needs compression pressure to help. This makes the ring-to-piston side clearance more critical.

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Rob

07-25-2003 11:44:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, in reply to david - OR, 07-25-2003 08:24:11  
Yeah, people used to do 'ring jobs' pretty often. I suppose guys with high-dollar rolling stock still have them done. Car owners don't.
That problem at the top seems to be more that I didn't get all the ridge cut out. The old pistons came out fine but when you go to hone it has to be fully cut or the end of the hone rides up and lifts the middle of the hone off the sleeve. Looks like the wear is not even. The cutter cuts round and the sleeve may have some out-of-round leaving some ridge, dunno. If it's out of round very much it might be a problem. Better check that. The rings will seat, eventually, even with some out-of-round I suppose.
Anyway, I removed the tiny bit of the ridge left by the cutter and honing the sleeves is working out a lot better.
Dress up the journals, clean up the gasket surfaces, wash it out good, and I'll have it ready to slap together when the rings get here.
I'm going to doublenut and torque the headstuds into the block this time. I didn't do that last time and I had one seeping water for a couple hours. The studs were not tight in the block when I got the head off. Maybe I'll torque them into the block with the high end of the torque spec and then torque the nuts to the lower end. Thinking about it maybe I should do it the other way around. What you think about that?

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david - OR

07-26-2003 08:01:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapp in reply to Rob, 07-25-2003 11:44:48  
More torque on the studs will not necessarily stop the water seeping. Teflon thread sealant on the bottom threads is the best way to do that.

I don't think there is even a spec on the tightness of the studs in the block, as there isn't a seating face on the block end of the stud to create tension in the lower threads and thereby create a reliable recipe for torque.

If I were to re-use the studs I'd goober up the bottom threads with non-hardening teflon pipe thread sealant. Screw them into the block until the installed height looks right. Don't worry about torque on the bare studs. Wipe off any sealant from the top of the block and the top threads of the studs. Put the head on. Tighten the nuts to the torque spec. It won't matter if the stud turns a bit as you torque the nuts; the sealant will re-seal around the threads after the stud turns.

My preferred recipe for the head is the following:

1) Genuine FNH composite head gasket 2) box of 7/16 14 x 2 1/2 inch grade 8 cap screws 3) box of 7/16 grade 8 SAE washers 4) Can of teflon thread sealant

Items 2) 3) and 4) can be had from a place like Ace Hardware for a total of $12.00 or so.

Put the head gasket on the block with the rolled edges up (toward the head). Do not use gasket paint.

Coat the bolt threads with the sealant. Install the bolt and washer into the hole and start the threads. (Do not use a washer if there is to be a bracket under that particular bolt head). Wipe any sealant off the bolt head and washer -- it will throw off the torque later if you don't.

Torque the bolts in 3 steps in the proper sequence to a total of 53 foot pounds. (The torque spec is adjusted downward from the 70 ft-lbs "clean and dry threads" spec to allow for the lubricating effects of the sealant on the bolt threads.)

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Evil Steve

07-24-2003 07:57:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Valve lapping, latest verse in reply to David - OR, 07-24-2003 07:32:18  
David-

Exactly what I was thinking.



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