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OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat?

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RoN of ohio

07-25-2003 12:15:42

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I suppose I could go to any number of webb sites and get information, but I value the opinions of you in "n-land" more than most. My wife and I are selling our home in the 'burbs' and are gonna build our dream home on a farm that we own in Southern Ohio. We are going to buy a double-wide (huge: 2340sqft) to put there and our intentions are to sell the double-wide and one acre as soon as our home is finished. That being said, we are aware that situations change especially for people in their 60's and we realize that this double-wide just might have to be our home for some time. The problem that we are faced with is that the company that we are buying the double-wide from has offered to remove the conventional electric furnace and will replace it with either a gas furnace (my choice) or a electric heat pump. My son (who has a home with heat pump) says "go with the heat pump". My daughter who works with air handling systems says "you won't like the heat pump cause it will emit 85deg. air which in the winter will feel cold. Go with gas". Or should I just stay with the conventional electrical furnace and central air which is already installed. I need honest opinions on this from someone who is experienced with at least two of three choices. Thanks and Sorry for the long post..Ron

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Lee C

07-26-2003 18:54:11

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I worked as a HVAC mechanic for 20 years.

My thoughts on the heat pump are this:

They can boast up to 148% efficiency
Provide both heating & cooling BUT,
They'll cost you a fortune to run in the winter, you will feel cold drafts all winter long due to a low discharge air temperature
Your wife will be miserable, which will make you miserable. You will find you pay a lot( monthly utility bill ) for a little comfort.

The Gas furnace:
Efficiency from 80-97%
Warm discharge air temp-usually about45 degress above room temp
( you wont perceive cold drafts with a warm discharge air temp)
Costs about 40% less to heat with gas than with a heat pump( assuming we are talking natural, not propane)
Only negative is you wont have cooling unless you add a split system.

Don't be fooled by efficiency. Electric heat is 100% efficient as you don't lose any heay up a chimney-

My best advice is go with the gas, & understand that the higher efficiency you want, the reliability goes down. I'd settle for 85% efficiency.

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Vic

07-26-2003 07:23:52

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I've always heated with gas and probably always will. But bear in mind that nationwide, natural gas prices are skyrocketing (average of about 30% above last year and climbing!). Even Alan Greenspan has expressed concern that gas prices will have a major detrimental effect on the economy.

I mention this because this can affectg the decisions you make; for example, traditionally, the ultra-high efficiency gas furnaces weren't a good purchase because the payback period was very long. The math changes pretty quickly as gas prices rise, so an ultra-high efficiency furnace might be a much smarter purchase a year from now than it was a year ago. Just something to consider...

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Bruce W

07-26-2003 07:20:14

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I've had an air to air heat pump for 10 yrs now. I wouldn't have anything less. Minnesota winters are cold, but with the 3 stage system, it works well. For 6 months of the heating season, I get by for $100. That's on a 100 yr old house (2,000 sq ft 2 story) with 0 wall insulation and very poor windows. In the last 3 yrs I have burned less that 500 gallons of #2 Oil in addition to the heat pump.

If you are getting your electric thru a rural coop supplier, you might be able to get a rebate on energy consumed.

My normal electric rate is 7.1 cents/kwh. The heat pump gets a 4 cent/kwh credit. It takes 62 cent #2 oil to compete with 3 cent electricity.

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Fast Ed Ohio

07-26-2003 00:12:49

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Natural gas for heat if you can get it, it is also the best for domestic hot water, its your dollar, Ohio winters can be brutal, I have set many a gas meter in " All electric homes " the first comment from most homeowners : thats the first time any heat has come out of that register: Fast Ed , retired serviceman from East Ohio Gas . Energy prices continue to rise, I feel natural gas will still be your best value for the dollar .

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Rick H. Ga.

07-25-2003 20:30:13

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Hi Ron,

I have worked in the HVACR industry for about 15 years. I worked as a service technician for several years. Your daughter is almost correct; the heat pump will usually produce a supply air temperature of about 95* F at best. The 95*F supply air temperature will rise to about 110*F or more when the auxiliary heat strips come on but then you loose efficiency.

When I worked as service tech I went on many service calls in the winter where the occupants of the home were elderly and the system was a heat pump and the complaint was inadequate heating. Ironically, many times I could not find anything wrong with the system. All the diagnostic components were within parameters and the air supply temperature was around 95* F. Since the normal body temperature is 98.6*F the occupants just felt uncomfortable although the system was maintaining a 75 or so degree space temperature.

On the other hand, straight electric heat will produce a hotter supply air temperature if there are enough heat strips installed. However, as some of the others have said, gas heat heats the house faster and hotter and feels warmer as a general rule. Most gas heating systems produce a supply air temperature of about 120*F.

Keep in mind that natural gas prices are rising and may continue to rise. If you can supplement your heating with wood or coal you might want to go with the heat pump which is more efficient than gas, at least until the out door temperature reaches about 40*F. HTH. Rick H. Ga.

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Don Campbell

07-25-2003 20:19:20

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Down here in Louisiana the heat pump does pretty well to keep the house warm in the winter as long as the outside temp doesn't get too low. We had a below freezing snap a few years back and the back up heating strips did have to come on quit a bit. The other thing that happened which I didn't like is that the heat pump would kick back to the cooling mode to heat up the compressor for short periods. Talk about getting cold air in the house, it was bad. I would guess it gets quit a bit colder up there in Ohio than it does here. So I wouldn't think a heat pump would do that well there.

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Roland Jackson

07-25-2003 18:38:30

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Ron, Kathy and I moved to our ranch about two years ago. After talking to many builders, we decided the best value for our money was a double wide. They are built really nice these days and are about half the price per square foot as stick built homes. Our house was already put together, so they hauled it to our place on a huge truck. We like electric heat, but it does take some getting use to. This house had gas heat, so we decided to leave it. We are adding an out door wood furance because we have so many trees. Here is the URL: >Link

One>Link thing we experienced that you might want to think about is the mouse problem. We live on the banks of the Pawnee River to the west, to the east is our irrigation circle sprinkler. When the ground is farmed, all those little displaced critters come looking for a new home. We are winning the battle, however, it takes lots of effort. Make sure that the heating ducts in your new home are sealed really well. Start now on mouse control. I buy mouse bate in bars, then poke them in 1 1/4" pvc pipe. I screw a screw in each end of the pvc so the bars can't be removed by other wild life. The secret is to wipe out the familys before they have a chance to leave their scent in your new house. We have a bunch of cats too...which is another reason for the pvc pipe. This post is getting too long....but if you would like to email me, I would be glad to share more tips you will need when moving to the ranch. YOU are going to have so much fun!

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david - OR

07-25-2003 18:00:23

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Since you are installing the heat on a farm, you could consider a ground source heat pump. This uses a water/antifreeze solution circulating through poly pipe buried in trenches set 5 feet in the ground, instead of an outdoor condensing unit.

The earth temperature stays nearly the same all year round, so the "cold air from the ducts on cold days" problem of heat pumps is solved. This makes them higher efficiency as well.

This gives you an excuse to buy a backhoe to augment your N-series tractor to dig the trenches.

Alternatively, if there is a pond or flowing water on the property, you've got it made.

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07-25-2003 16:05:07

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

There are a lot of different ways to heat and cool your home. being that it's a double-wide, it's probably not as thermally-efficient as a stick-built wooden house with adequate insulation and air-space in the walls. I have an 1800 SF 2 story house in NC. My total electric bill runs around $125/mo average 12 months. R-35 walls with thermax sheathing. I have a small heat pump for upstairs and larger one for downstairs. My house is total electric. The heat pump has no problem cooling, but when it's really cold inthe winter, the auxiliary heater strips come on and that really runs the power bill up. The air that comes out in winter always feels cool, even though the thermostat tell you that it's 76 or 80 degrees. You don't get that warm toasty feeling like you do with gas heat. I use a wood stove to keep the place comfy. It's dirty and a lot of work, but you can back up to it and get warm. I'd like to replace the wood stove with gas logs or a corn-or wood-pellet-burning stove. If you have a natrural gas line running across your property you could probably tap into that. If not, LP prices can get outrageous, unless you book ahead at a locked-in price.

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Gaspump

07-25-2003 17:03:49

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Re: Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to bg, 07-25-2003 16:05:07

Right on BG! I too have two heat pumps here in FL and when the outside temps fall the chilly feeling sets in. We sometimes use the fireplace to take the bite off. If one had enough heat strips to really make the warm air toasty the cost of electricity would really soar, just too much air has to pass over the strips to really warm it up. Gas or oil with efficient heat pumps for A/C would be my choice in OH.

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07-25-2003 18:33:32

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Re: Re: Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to Gaspump, 07-25-2003 17:03:49

A lot of folks around here use gas-paks added to heat pumps. You should have a water-to-air "Florida Heat Pump!"

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Rob

07-25-2003 14:30:40

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I've installed and maintained all those types systems.
Electric heat isn't much warmer air then a heat pump. 85 v 95 or so. If that's a big deal then go with gas or just make sure the grills are set up so no one has air blowing on them. None of those systems are the most comfortable systems because they all have air moving. Now a baseboard system gets away from moving air and an in-floor system is great because you have toasty floors and no air blowing on anyone at any temp. The house is just warm.
You looking for a retirement home you might be more concerned with opperating costs 10-yrs down the road and how long the equipment will last then you are the initial cost. None of your 3 choices are the lowest opperating cost. They all have lower efficency then the systems that don't blow air all over the place.

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RoN of ohio

07-25-2003 14:54:24

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Re: Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to Rob, 07-25-2003 14:30:40

I am concerned with operating costs if we have to continue in this double-wide for any length of time. One thing they seem to have going is the insulation. 6" in the walls and floor and not sure how much is in ceiling, but it must be comprable. It does have a wood burning fireplace with closable doors and I have plenty of wood for that. I might mention that I just installed 5 yrs ago a 92 percent efficient furnace. Here in central, it rarely gets below zero in the winter, but it does linger around 15 degrees for a long periods. My level billing for gas (heat only) is $25.79 per mo. I would be extremely happy with that in the double-wide...thanks for the info..Ron

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'Ole Henry' (Va)

07-25-2003 14:27:02

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

Go with the gas (high efficiency), you'll stay warmer.

John A

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07-25-2003 13:42:29

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I am currently in process of building a home (approx. 2800 finished sq. ft). I also looked into the heat pump vs. gas and finally went with a high (not the highest) efficiency gas. My builder and others convinced me that the difference in price would take literally years to pay back the difference in price by the monthly savings in energy. The same holds true for the highest efficiency gas....a much higher price tag and not much difference in savings in energy cost. The unit installed in my house is 92% efficient, and time will tell if what he said is true. I cannot remember the numbers, but it was substantially more $$ to go to the heat pump. Others will likely give a differing opinion, but in my opinion the payback simply was not there. However, I was talking a ground source system which drove the price up even more.

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Lee

07-25-2003 13:05:25

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Re: OT. Heat pump vs. gas heat? in reply to RoN of ohio, 07-25-2003 12:15:42

I've owned homes with coal heat, wood heat, natural gas heat and now a heat pump. My builder warned me that I may not be comfortable with the heat pump and even made provisions to add electric baseboard heat if I requested it. I've been using the heat pump since 1988 and although it doesn't blow out as hot of air as the gas I'm perfectly comfortable with it. I should also mention that I don't keep my house as warm as a lot of people do in winter. Usually 65 to 68 degrees. Now if you want HOT heat coal is the way to go...but I don't expect they'll change it to that fer ya !! Wood is also a nice warm cozy heat.
Later, Lee

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