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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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12volt mystery

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OhioKen

11-19-2003 18:32:30




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Just changed 9N to 12 volt using a dozen drawings from internet (all same). Bought rebuilt GM alt. with int. reg. Used P1/P2 posts and wired in idiot lite and voltmeter. Meter registers 12V with key on and lite is on. Start eng., meter still reads 12V but the lite stays on. Why does lite stay on? One man said even though an alt. puts out 12V it may not be putting out amps. I admit I briefly crossed terminals on battery once but had alt. checked, and its putting out 14V.

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Figgy-Hoosier

11-25-2003 08:49:40




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 Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-19-2003 18:32:30  
Where did you get the 12volt diagrams? I need help with my wires... Thanks.. Figgy



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OhioKen

11-25-2003 19:04:57




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 Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to Figgy-Hoosier, 11-25-2003 08:49:40  
To find good 12 volt dia. go to www.nseries.com. On left hand side look for Maintenance. Scroll down to wiring diagrams and click. When they come up scroll down to 12volt conversion for which ever tractor you have. When it comes to electric I am like an Amishman in Circuit City, and I found this to be as simple drawing as any. Did my neighbors and works great - did mine and something still just not right. I painted my tractor with heavy industrial undercoat and very hard automotive finish coat and then rewired. I now think that not everything is grounded properly.

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Dell (WA)

11-20-2003 00:01:07




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 Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-19-2003 18:32:30  
Ken..... .....there's so many ways improperly wire a 12 volt conversion, I couldn't even begin to quess where you've miss-wired. I flunked mind reading, just ask my ex-wife.

If'n yer voltmeter was wired properly, you'd read 12 volt before you started your engine and you'd read 14 volts AFTER you started your engine. I'm not certain about your idiot light, its supposed to be between P-1 and your ignition switch ON terminal. You do have your P-2 terminal connected by short wire to the BIG alternator output stud, don't you? Does your engine stop when you turn OFF your ignition switch?..... ....respectfully, Dell, a 12 volt advocate for the right reasons

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OhioKen

11-20-2003 06:59:39




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 Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to Dell (WA), 11-20-2003 00:01:07  
Yes, I have 12V on voltmeter (mtd. on dash) with key on and 12V after eng. start. Idot lite wired between P-1 and ign ON. Turn on key, lite is on - start eng - lite stays on. P-2 wired to BIG output stud on alt and eng stops when ign off. Wired neighbors 9N this summer same way - works great. Thats why I am questioning amperage output of alt. Is it possible to put out plenty of voltage but to little amps???. Could module in alt. be BAD. Thanks for quick response fellows. When I retired from die shop the biggest loss was the information pool. I often said if you wanted to build A-bomb you could find someone who knew how. Then I found this site. Guys like you fellows make it GREAT. Thanks again

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OhioKen

11-20-2003 16:47:05




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 Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 06:59:39  
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Every comment to fix this dang thing, nobody suggested that it was merely a wiring goof. I spent hours going over and over all the brand new wiring, connectors, gauges, lites, etc. and maybe you fellers could sense this by my comments. Anyway, it seems everyone is pretty well on the same page. I believe there has been a major break through to confirm a bad module in alt. First let me say, after warming up engine, the lite still dosen't go out even after hitting govenor and overrevving for an instant. I did find that by touching a wire for an instant to the P1 side of idiot lite and the + side of battery the lite goes out and the voltmeter jumps to 14 volts. Everything works great but after shutting down and restarting, I have to go thru the same routine again. Sooo, like was suggested I believe the module in alt. is not sending proper volt/amps through the P1 wire to excite anything. The alt. is a rebuild with 1 year warranty so will post a message to let everyone know if we will be brush hogging and making battery juice at the same time. THANKS AGAIN for the kind responses.

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DavidO....Problem found

11-21-2003 04:13:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 16:47:05  
Ken, I think you have located your problem.
"I did find that by touching a wire for an instant to the P1 side of idiot lite and the + side of battery the lite goes out and the voltmeter jumps to 14 volts.Everything works great but after shutting down and restarting, I have to go thru the same routine again" If you did not have the "idiot light" in the circuit, this is exactly what you would need to do to get the alternator to charge. In fact a lot of people do just that by using a switch to momentarily connect the P1 terminal to the battery to start the charging cycle and then turn it off. It sounds like everything is working fine, EXCEPT you have a problem in your circuit from the P1 terminal to the battery. As I suggested in an earlier post, you may have a light that has too much resistance and it will not work, or you may not have the light wired in correctly. Try jumping directly across the light and see if it produces the same results as momentarily jumping P1 to the + side of the battery. If it does, then the bulb is not working. If it does not, then you need to recheck the whole P1-bulb-to ignition switch wiring circuit. I know that it can be a little frustrating, but remember that something is not right or it would work. You are close. Just get this one circuit going and I think you are going to have a working charging system.

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Dell (WA)

11-20-2003 10:13:28




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 Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 06:59:39  
Ken..... ...since your engine stops when your ignition switch is turned off, I'm gonna guess your idiot light is wired correctly. BUT BECAUSE your voltmeter never changes or indicates charge volts of 14 and because your idiot light never turns OFF (which also indicates charge) I'm gonnna go out on a limb and guess your alternator is not outputting charging volts.

To answer your question..... "Is it possible to put out plenty of voltage but to (too) little amps??? Yes, that's why there are voltage regulators. And yes, miss-connecting your 12 volt battery, even for just an instant, will kill your built-in 12 volt voltage regulator..... ....Dell

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DavidO

11-20-2003 09:08:39




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 Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 06:59:39  
Ok, based on that information, several things come to mind. Is the voltmeter hooked up in a way that it is electrically hooked up across the battery terminals? It should be and the indication on the meter should reflect the battery terminal voltage. Otherwise it is of no value. Are you using the same type marker lamp as on the other tracter? If you are using a marker light with too much resistance, the tractor will cut off ok, but the alternator will not charge the battery.To answer your question, yes an alternator can put out full voltage but, at the same time, not put out it's full rated current. What happens is that one or more of the diodes in one of the rectifier circuits opens. That does not reduce voltage output, but does reduce current output. This is not common, but I have seen it several times. If this were your problem, you would see 14 V on the battery, but it just would not fully charge. These are not the symptoms you described.
Just because your alternator has a P1 and P2 terminal, it is not necessarily a 3 wire alternator. It could be a 1 wire alternator which does not need the hook-ups to P1 and P2, but does have to rev up pretty high before it begins to charge the battery. After it begins to charge, you can cut back on the RPM. Wait until the engine warms up before you test this.

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JIm(FL)

11-20-2003 08:47:13




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 Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 06:59:39  
Ken, It could be a simple as..... the GM alternator initially is not being turned fast enough (RPM) to activate the charging field. You my have to rev the tractor motor up to get it to activate, then it would also operate at a lower rpm after that until you shut it down.

Jim



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Danny in CO

11-20-2003 07:18:09




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 Re: Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to OhioKen, 11-20-2003 06:59:39  
Ken,

If you still have 12 volts after the tractor starts, I would suspect the alternator is not putting out. It should put out about 14.7 volts when charging. You say (I think) that you hooked the battery up positive ground for a moment. If so, I suspect you burned out the regulator in the alternator. Alternators are DEFINITELY negative ground! Take the alternator to a parts house and have them check it out. They should do it for free.

Good luck,
Danny

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DavidO

11-20-2003 04:25:10




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 Re: Re: 12volt mystery in reply to Dell (WA), 11-20-2003 00:01:07  
When you say the meter reads 12 V, what meter are you talking about? Do you have a voltmeter on the tractor? Are you using a VOM? If so, where are you putting the probs? Across the battery terminals? If you are using a VOM and you are measuring the voltage across the battery terminals, you should read battery voltages with the engine not running and alternator/voltage regulator output voltage with the engine running, about 14V. If this is not the case, it is time to check how you have it wired.

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