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20W oil

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RandyinWNY

12-23-2003 05:29:58




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Guy's, I went to buy some 20W non detergent oil to put in my 8N for easier start ups in the cold weather, and I can't find any. I went to TSC and they said they don't carry any 20W. They only have Travelers 10W, 30W and 40W non detergent oil.
Any Ideas as to where I can get some 20W ND or are there any good substitutes for the 20W ND? Thanks in advance....Randy




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cargocult

12-24-2003 10:37:57




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
third party image

The manual calls for specific oils!! It's your tractors, but I think that Henry Ford knew what he was doing! Put the right oil in there, OK?? As far as a source for the 20w oil...keep looking, it is out there! See the scan from the manual that came with Dad's tractor, it is SPECIFIC!! Merry Christmas!!

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Jerry/MT

12-23-2003 11:53:00




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
Boy this is a subject that just won't die! Modern lubricants are soooo much better than the stuff that they had when these old tractors were designed and built. I wish that someone who was a lubrication engineer would write a treatise on this subject and put all the misinformation to rest once and for all. There, now I've vented! Randy, use detergent oil in your machine and don't look back. Use multi-vis if you want to and you'll be fine. It won't fix a worn engine but it will keep it much cleaner.

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Cap-in ID

12-23-2003 10:36:55




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
Randy - This may take you awhile to read but stay with me - When I first became involved with internal combustion engines what was available and what was used was single viscosity non-detergent oil. Then came detergent oils. Many resisted using them and for the usual reasons: "if it ain't broke don't fix it", "who wants all that crap floating around in their engines" etc., etc, and yes, some valid criticism based mostly on incorrect usage of the oils such as putting them in a high time, internally dirty engine. Over time mechanics found that when using detergent oils the engines were much cleaner and gave more hours of service so detergent oil became the accepted standard. Then came multiple viscosity oils. Now this really raised a controversy i.e. "who's going to put that thin oil in a hard working engine", "not thick enough to do the job", "it'll just let the engine wear out faster", etc. In the racing fraternity we were slow to change because our engines were used differently. We always throughly warmed up our engines before putting them to work and so the need was not as apparent. Engines are designed and the clearences set to operate at a given temperature with a given thickness of cushioning and wear reducing oil film. This oil film is maintained by the designed oil pressure. Too much oil pressure = wasted horsepower (think of how you can hear your engine rpm drop when you engage the hydraulic system. Too lower an oil pressure = insufficient oil flow to provide the necessary amount of cushion and lubrication. Think of how the operating oil pressure drops over time as the engine becomes worn and clearances increase. This is why using heavier oil in a worn engine will tend to increase oil pressure and prolong engine life. Most importantly, it is necessary to understand that most of the wear that occurs in an engine occurs WHEN THE ENGINE IS FIRST STARTED and before it is up to operating temperature. Comparatively very little of the wear occurs after everything is up to normal operating temps, design clearences have been attained, and the designed lubrication is being provided. In reciprocating internal combustion commercial aircraft engines this problem is partially overcome by having independently driven lube oil pumps that are switched on and operating oil pressure attained before firing up the engine. In heavy equipment diesel engines we crank the engine until oil pressure has developed before we add in a fuel setting to allow the engine to begin firing. Now, how does all this apply to MultiVis engine oil ?? Well, here's what is still commonly not well understood about multiviscosity engine oils. They provide the best of both worlds. They are thin and flow easily when cold, providing better start-up lubrication and are thick and meet the designed lubrication factors when the engine is at normal operation temps. A standard single weight engine oil is a given viscosity when cold and as that oil warms up the oil becomes thinner. A mulitviscosity engine oil is at the specified oil weight when cold (the low figure) and actually thickens as it warms up (to the specified high figure) i.e. 20W-40W multiVis is the thickness of 20W when cold and is the thickness of 40W when at normal operating temps. The wonders of modern chemistry ! ! Like so many things in this day and age, modern oil technology is vastly superior to what we used to have and, if the correct range is choosen, will better meet the needs of any engine. This is one of the main reasons it is now commonplace to get 200,000 miles on an engine and have it still perform well. When I started out playing with "real" engines most of them didn't last more than 60 or 70 thousand miles. In fact, up until about 1950 the Volkswagen factory would give a gold watch to any Volkswagen owner that attained the magical figure of 100,000 kilometers without overhaul. (and they were very well made machines). Unfortunately my first one was a 1951 so I never got my gold watch. It was one year newer than my current 8N, wish I still had it. I pulled it down at 160 thou.+ found virtually no wear, touched up the valves, put it back together and gave it to my daughter. But I digress, what I'm saying is, use a good quality 10-30 or 20-30 or 20-40 high detergent oil year round (low end depending on how cold it gets in your area and high end depends on how worn your engine is). Your engine will last longer, perform better, and start better. I would suggest that when making the change-over to detergent oil you start by "flushing" the engine. Put on a new filter, put in some high detergent oil, run the tractor a few hours at normal temps (say 4 or 5 hrs) then drain and replace both the oil and filter. By the way, never mix multi-vis with straight oil. The problem Bruce VA exprienced of lower oil pressure was because the chemical additives in the 1 qt of multi-vis he mixed with the 5 qts of single weight were insufficient in quantity to produce the thickening effect, so all he ended up with was 6 qts of thinner oil -- hence the lower oil pressure.
Happy Tractoring -- Cap --

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SteveB

12-24-2003 08:58:13




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Nice artical Cap. Hate to be picky, but I question the statement that multi-vis oil "actually thickens as it warms up".

A 20W-50 wil doesn't get any thicker than a 20 weight when cold, and doesn't get any thinner than a 50 weight when hot, but it still gets thick when cold and thin when hot. The only difference with a milti-vis is the range of thick vs thin

Just want to set the record straight...

-Steve

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Cap-in ID

12-24-2003 09:33:54




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to SteveB, 12-24-2003 08:58:13  
Steve -- YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT. My statement was incorrect. When you look at the combined graph of multi and single weight oils versus temperature level increase, NEITHER, oil increases in thickness. The 20W-50 starts out at the thickness of 20W at the lower temp and more nearly maintains that thickness (with a slight decrease vs increase in temp) up to a given higher temp. The single vis oil, lets say 30W, starts an a thicker state at the given cold temp and decreases in thickness to a state much thinner than that of the multi-vis at the given high temp. When I re-read my origional post after putting it up I saw my mis-statement but it was too late to correct it by then -- I'll try to be more careful in the future. Thanks -- Cap --

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Mike

12-24-2003 06:57:11




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Cap,

Well written and could have come from an oil company brochure, as a mechanic of 42 years (trained by the USAF) I've found some of the professed advantages of multiweight oils to be less than advertised.

While I was stationed in Alaska back in the 60's Taxaco was trying to convince the Air Force to switch it's vehicles from rerefined GI oil to Havoline 10-w-30 oil. I was lucky enough to have been involved and to have observed the results. The multiweight group required twice as many engine rebuilds as did the group run on the rerefined GI oil. No doubt the results of the oil companies tests will with differ with this test.

My personal experience has been that I've never had an engine fail while I've been using a straight weight oil and have had three that failed while using multiweight oil showing what I would consider to be excessive wear of various engine parts.

I do use multiweight oils in engines that require their use for which there are no equivalent straight weight oil replacements, as an example, 5-w-20 weight. In engines designed for the use of straight weight oils I've found it best to use straight weight oils.

An interesting note, last summer I purchased a new riding mower with a twin B&S OHV engine and find that now Briggs again recommends the use of straight weight oil in their engines. Do you think it might be that they've replaced enough multiweight engines under warrenty? Hummm . . . Could be.

Mike

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Cap-in ID

12-24-2003 09:08:26




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Mike, 12-24-2003 06:57:11  
Mike -- thanks for the input. It's the combined experiences of all of us that make this Disscussion Forum so useful. I never worked for an oil company but have been involved in building, re-building, modifying, and using, all kinds of engines since the late 40's as a heavy equipment owner/operator, nationaly ranked racer (long time ago), pilot, and mechanic and yes, I've had a tad bit of training and formal education along those lines. When I was riding for the Yamaha factory and involved in their small engine development program they started out using "crowded roller" bearings on the crank. At that time we found that the ONLY oil that would prevent them from locking up was refined castor oil -- different engines, different service, but interesting. (had them change to caged roller which solved the problem - didn't allow the rollers to skew as the clearences increased with heat. Seems simple, but so does adequate fire protection on the space capsule) It would be interesting to know what caused the engine failures you experienced in Alaska -- perhaps the greater cold changed or prevented the function of the chemicals in the oil being used, I guess you and I will never know now (but I'm sure someone does) progress is still being made. I do know that running engines in extreme cold poses extreme lubrication problems but never having worked under those conditions and mostly dealing with high heat and loads my experiences fall more in line with Dell's (cleaner internals, less wear, more hours service) As for your new Briggs and Stratton we can't know for sure why the change but it's probably involved with money, the bottom line, somehow. A facetious guess would be that maybe they anticipate selling more replacement parts and engines down the line. B & S engines don't have a reputation for longevity. Thanks for sharing your experiences, we all benefit from shared knowledge. That's what this Forum is all about. -- Cap --

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Willy-N

12-23-2003 16:15:04




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
I run 10/40 in my tractors no problems at all and do it year round winter or summer. Start just great and good oil presure hot or cold. Mark H.



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9n141

12-23-2003 17:19:01




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Willy-N, 12-23-2003 16:15:04  
Same here, also in boats - IOs 350 and 454 GM engines - these are offten run in the 4-5000 rev. range. BURT.



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Willy-N

12-23-2003 18:24:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to 9n141, 12-23-2003 17:19:01  
It is handy to have one type of oil for everything around my place too! Now my 2 cycles are different that stuff is big bucks!! I also run a different oil in my 3208 Cat Deisel Truck. Mark H.



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Paul 8N 20654

12-23-2003 12:53:28




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Hey Cap,it's always nice to hear from someone that can put what the rest of us is thinking into words! TNKX cap



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Bruce (VA)

12-23-2003 12:29:35




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Cap, tnx for the great info. You've got me re-thinking stuff I "learned" 35 years ago. Assuming I follow your instructions re converting my N's to HD multi-vis next year..... what is your thinking re the effects of the change on the rope seals?



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Cap-in ID

12-23-2003 22:43:38




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Bruce (VA), 12-23-2003 12:29:35  
Bruce -- I can't make any "for sure" statements in trying to answer your question because I've never seen or done comparitive tests on rope seals but in thinking about it I don't think the fact that it's multi-Vis will make much if any difference in seal leakage over whatever you might have now because most of the time (all the time it's up to normal temps) the oil viscosity will be about same as, or an improvement over, your current single-vis oil and there's no pressure to force the oil past the seal except for any unvented crankcase pressure that might exist in an engine with excessive blow-by. As for the cleaning effect of the detergent, I'm guessing that it might be beneficial because it will keep the rope seal cleaner (there is a washing effect caused by the oil splashing around in the pan and onto the seal, so not as much carbon buildup will occur as with non-det oil). Reduced carbon buildup will keep the seal softer longer and better able to seal like it does when new. I really don't think it would renew an old seal that had already hardend up due to heat and carbon buildup, but it might help a bit. If you decide to make the change, and your engine is mid-life or more, be sure to flush it out and keep an eye on the oil for the first couple of changes in case it cleans out a bit more stuff and gets dirty faster than usual. Also, I'm a strong believer in changing the filter every time I change the oil. (on any engine) Happy Tractoring -- Cap --
PS -- what part of VA ?? I have family outside of Richmond

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Bruce (VA)

12-24-2003 05:21:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 22:43:38  
Cap, tnx for the follow-up. Makes sense to me. I'm in Old Church, Hanover County, about 15 miles NE of Richmond. Probably the closet town on most maps is Mechancisville. Lived in Ashland, also in Hanover Co from 1978 to 1999 when we moved to Old Church. From here originaly; Glen Allen, N of Richmond. How about you & your kin folk?



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Cap-in ID

12-24-2003 11:01:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Bruce (VA), 12-24-2003 05:21:12  
Bruce, you're surrounded by some of my kin. My son Carl up north in Fairfax County, niece Mary S.E. in Highland Springs, niece Laura in Powhatan to the S.W. and Brother in law Wm Jervy whose family have been long, long time residents of Powhatan County at "Jude's Ferry Farm" alongside the James river E. of Richmond. Bill has used an 8N on the farm for years, along with a Huber "maintainer" to keep up his roads. Doesn't have a computer so he's missing out on all this stuff but that probably gives him more time on the 8N.
I was born in Nebr. - Grandpa farmed 80 acres outside of Falls City with an early Allis Chalmers (after horses). He bought it new and it was his prized possession, was kept in the barn - the car sat outside. "Different Strokes", all good. -- Cap --

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Bruce (VA)

12-24-2003 12:01:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-24-2003 11:01:12  
Amazing small world, isn't it? I drive through Highland Springs every day back & forth to work in downtown Richmond, and just was talking to the Powhatan Sheriff on work stuff yesterday. In fact, I'll probably be going to Powhatan Co Friday or Saturday to look at a Wagner saw w/ attachments for the N. The belt drive is what I'm really after. Any of your kin work for state or local govt? I've got 30 years w/ state govt & work daily w/ the local Sheriffs & prosecutors.

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Cap-in ID

12-24-2003 12:26:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Bruce (VA), 12-24-2003 12:01:48  
Next time you see the Powhatan Sheriff ask him about William Jervey. I'm sure he'll know him. Bill was instrumental in helping to get the Powhatan Vol. Fire Dept. started (? 30+ yrs ago ?) and later the Powhatan Rescue squad. He is still active and responds to calls on the Rescue Squad. It IS a small world indeed. Good health and Happy Holidays to you and yours. -- Cap --



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Chad

12-23-2003 12:14:13




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Cap write a book next time and keep them long lectures of yours off of the forumns,, The guy just wants to know where he can buy 20W oil. Nobody cares about the history of oil. We just want to know where we can get the oil from..



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uh . . . Dell (WA)

12-23-2003 13:44:53




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Chad, 12-23-2003 12:14:13  
Chad..... .I think Cap authored an EXCELLENT RESPONSE to Randy's question about using 20wt non-detergent oil in his old 8N tractor.

Yep, the 1939 Ford tractor manual recommended 20wt oil for cold weather operations. It also recommended 80wt mineral gear oil for the hydraulics. And while your can use them if'n you can find them, why bother? Modern lubricants are soooo much better.

I use 20-50wt Valvoline oil on all my vehicles, including my diesel's and BMW's and 52 8N. My 1969 BMW 2002 has 385k miles and you can virtually eat off the overhead camshaft cover. My 95 Dodge Cummins diesel, the oil is still clean at 4000 mile oilchange and it has 156k miles. My 82 Volks Rabbit Diesel P/U has at 260k miles and sooty oil at oil change time. That tells me, my oil is doing things right.

I worked as a mechanic at a BMW dealer in the 70's and we'd get these fussy BMW owners that wanted their special "trick racing oil" used at oil change time. You'd pull the valve cover off and find a black crusty deposit on everything and mine was eatin' clean. Makes ya wonder, eh?

Bottom line, you wouldn't catch me using 20wt ND oil in any of my engines..... ...respectfully, Dell

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I'll bet...

12-23-2003 13:05:53




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Chad, 12-23-2003 12:14:13  
..your that 5th dentist that doesn't like trident (big grin).
.....don t. .....



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homeboy

12-23-2003 11:59:01




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Cap-in ID, 12-23-2003 10:36:55  
Randy; thanks for a great article on oil.



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Rich,NJ

12-23-2003 12:51:53




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 Re: Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to homeboy, 12-23-2003 11:59:01  
Randy, Thanks for the article! Better more info than less! Thanks again for providing the info in an easy to read form.
Regards, Rich



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Evil Steve

12-23-2003 07:51:13




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
Randy-

Gotta echo what others say about using detergent oil. Simply is no reason to use ND oil. For those few who cling to using ND to prevent particles from staying "in solution", I say why not remove and clean the sludge out of your pan and start using detergent from now on?



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Jeb2N

12-23-2003 09:10:58




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 Re: Re: 20W oil in reply to Evil Steve, 12-23-2003 07:51:13  
My thoughts as to why people were to aviod detergents in N's was due to the detergents cleaning the engine out and opening up worn out passages and thereby resulting in O/P dropping (also signifying rebuild time). Kinda like you put in MMO to clean a stuck valve and now you have oil leaks and blow by, etc from opening stuff up.

In other words, I just heard to avoid detergents in an old, worn engine to keep it going, but to switch to modern oils after a rebuild to keep the engine clean. As for multi-weight, I still beleive in straight weight oils for these tractors.

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2fordsmike

12-23-2003 07:44:46




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
We were using 10W-30 Trop-Artic, a detergent multi-grade from Philips, in our Ford tractors as early as the late 50s, if memory serves me right. The tank men who made gas deliveries to our farm sold dad on the concept. Most farmers of that era used the best oils available with the thought that the best oils gave the longest engine life. I am always surprised to read that in 2003 we should use use non-detergent oil in Ns. Cordially, Mike-Iowa

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Bruce (VA)

12-23-2003 06:41:07




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
Randy, I usually run 30w oil in my N's. Last summer when changing the oil in my '51, I failed to make sure that I had 6 qts of 30w on the shelf before I drained the oil out. My next mistake was being to lazy to drive 10 miles to town and get 30w oil, followed by my third mistake of putting the 10w30 I use in the pickup in the tractor. The result was a drop of 10 lbs in hot oil pressure. So, that proves my point as to why I use straight weight oil. As to detergent/non-detergent, my rationale for using ND is that detergent oil captures the dirt for the filter to pick up, and the N filter is not nearly as efficent as the modern filters. So, w/ ND oil, you get sludge build up in the pan. Also, I'm not to sure that the rope oil seals on these old engines work well with ND oil.

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Polish Mike

12-23-2003 05:42:29




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 Re: 20W oil in reply to RandyinWNY, 12-23-2003 05:29:58  
Geez...Go to some new technology, Randy. Try a multi grade (10W40, 20W50), detergent oil, it'll work just fine.



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