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Wagner WM-3 Loader Info?

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Phil B.

12-24-2003 00:26:27

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I'm restoring (for light work) a Wagner WM3 loader that I removed from an 8n that had been sitting for 18 yrs. I have a couple questions about this loader:

1. Are the two lift cylinders "live hydraulics" or are does the lift drop slowly with gravity? The bucket has a two-port cyclinder and the lift cylinders have a single port. Not being very knowledgeable about hydraulic cylinders, I assume a single port means single action (?).

2. Has anyone replaced their cylinders for this loader? If so, what did you use? The closed, eye to eye spacing is 40" with a bore of 2" and a stroke of 28". I've looked at Northern Tools but am looking at other options.

3. Any manuals (I've looked at n-news but no luck there?

4. Has anyone replaced the control valve? If so, what brand/model did you replace it with? I understand parts cannot be found for the stock Wagner control valve (?).

Sorry for so many question. I spent about three hours last night reading through the archive posts here but no answers to the questions above.

Thanks for any help/pointers.

Phil B.

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week N warrior / MO

12-27-2003 05:54:28

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Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 00:26:27

There are two problems with this loader that I have found that I think I should mention. I haven't done the modifications yet but will before I paint it.
One Is that it has a rail (pipe) that goes from one side to the other up where the battery door is. I need to cut mine off and move it to the front some more. As it is now you can�t open the door far enough. As a result, I have to siphon gas into the tank instead of poring it in.
The other is that when you curl the bucket up as far as it will go it is level with the ground. I'm gonna extend the pipe frame a couple of inches or so that it will curl up past the level point. Other wise when you are moving a lots of the dirt, or what ever you are moving, falls out. Let me know if you find these as potential problems with your too. My guess is you will since yours is the same model as mine. Unless if someone has already modified it.

Carl

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Phil B.

12-28-2003 21:31:44

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Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to week N warrior / MO, 12-27-2003 05:54:28

Carl, I'll definitely take a look at the cross-bar when the frame gets back from the sandblaster. Isn't that cross-bar open and part of the reservoir? If not, I'll also cut and move it if mine is in the way of pouring gas.

What cylinders are you looking at or did you buy for the rears? Did you replace the bucket cylinder? If so, which one did you use?

Also, does your pipe have a couple of pin-hole breather holes? I have one at the 3/4in. pipe fill cap and the other on the left side right at the top of the triangle.

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week N warrior / MO

01-01-2004 17:39:14

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Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-28-2003 21:31:44

No, That pipe is not part of the reservoir.
It is welded to a flat bar. I haven't replaced any cylinders. I did look at Surplus Center one time to see if I could find double acting ones for the rear and to see what they would cost. I found one that would work. If I remember right they are about $250 each. However I didn't write down the item number, sorry. It could be that at some point someone might had replace the bucket cylinder. They might had put in a longer one and that would explain why my bucket won't curl up past the level point. But it does have the same original rust color look to it.
My frame fill holes are just capped off. Someone at some point installed a nice external tank. So the frame is no longer used as a reservoir.
I hpe I have helped you some.
If you have more question feel free to ask.

Carl

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Barry

12-26-2003 12:11:46

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Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 00:26:27

Try this site Phil, it may answer float question better for you.
http://www.carverequipment.com/loader_joy_stick_and_float_posit.htm

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Phil B.

12-26-2003 23:53:43

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Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Barry, 12-26-2003 12:11:46

Barry - Yes, that made it crystal clear! Thanks.

Phil B.

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Barry

12-26-2003 06:34:39

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Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 00:26:27

My understanding of the float feature is that it allows the blade to automatically adjust for diferences in the terrain.Other wise you may well end up having a set depth and destroy your grading on slopes , etc. There is probably more to it and suppose someone with more heavy equipment experience will reply.

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Phil B.

12-26-2003 11:41:03

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Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Barry, 12-26-2003 06:34:39

Thanks Barry.

Phil B.

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week N warrior / MO

12-24-2003 16:35:18

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Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 00:26:27

Yes I guess you could call the hydraulic live since they have their own pump to run off of.
You are right the bucket is double acting. Has hydraulic pressure both ways. The lift cylinder only has lift. No downward pressure.
You need to look at Surplus Center for cylinders and valves. They have a better selection. I found the rear cylinders there with double action. If I ever have to replace mine that�s the route I would take. I don't remember the item number. I did buy a valve from them. I went with a three spool valve. That's so I can run a cylinder on the 3 pt top link or on an implement. I also now have the port I would need if I replace the loaders lift cylinder. If you want to go that route I can get you the part number. If you buy a valve get one with open center (A MUST) and a float on one valve. Here's a link that llamas gave me for a joy stick valve:
Link

That would be a good choice if you want a two spool.
I don't have a manual for mine. I've seen someone on here post pictures from the pages on here. I think it was Mike.
Hope this helps,
Carl

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Phil B.

12-24-2003 17:30:15

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Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to week N warrior / MO, 12-24-2003 16:35:18

Thanks Carl. Yes, if I have to replace the cylinders, I will replace the valve to use double-action cylinders. I need to get up on the hydraulics terminology. What does "open center" mean?

Thanks again for the info.

Phil B.

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week N warrior / MO

12-24-2003 18:04:46

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Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 17:30:15

Just about all I know I've learned here.
There are three kinds of systems: open center, closed center and power beyond. Open center is used when your pump runs all the time. It has to run threw the valve and back in the tank when it's running. Other wise it would blow out the pump. So the center is "open" when you are not useing it. Closed center the pump comes on when you need the use your hydraulic. I'm not really sure how the power beyond works. Carl

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Phil B.

12-24-2003 18:21:41

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to week N warrior / MO, 12-24-2003 18:04:46

Carl,

The stock control valve that came on the loader had only one, 3/4 in. input, from the tube resevoir. The two spool valves I looked at have an input and an output (closed center?). Not sure the GPMs of the stock valve but I assume a 20 GPM valve would work fine.

What do you think about this valve:
Link

Its price is right. Don't know what I need to modify for the second 3/4 in. input on the valve, though. Maybe I need to drill and weld another 3/4 in. pipe into the tube resevoir (?). Like anything, I'll get all the details eventually.

Do you have any pics of your loader on the tractor?

Take care,

Phil B.

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week N warrior / MO

12-25-2003 16:44:48

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to Phil B., 12-24-2003 18:21:41

I feel sure if you look your old valve will have both an input and output port. The input should come from the pump and the out put should go into the reservoir. Mine had been modified with a external tank instead of using the pipe frame. but I think it had the same valve on it. From what I was told it better to go to �" working ports and �" lines would be a good idea too. I had already replaced all my line with 3/8" before I got the new valve. That valve you picked out would work but it doesn't have the float. When I bought my valve I considered that the new valve would be rebuild able and that it would be with the tractor and me for the rest of our lives. So I didn't want to really consider the cost. What will that matter two, ten, fifty years from now?
With a new valve you will most likely have to do some repiping. You will also want to add a filter to the line. I'm trying to get so I can post pictures. Maybe I will be able to at a latter date.

Here a quote out of the archive that llamas
replied to me. It's a shame he only posts every now and then. He really knows about these things.
Carl

"That being said - a valve with 3/8 working ports is really restricting the speed of your loader. You might be pleasantly surprised with how fast the loader works with a larger-body valve and larger-bore hoses - but that is a considerable expense.

Whatever you do, make sure that the valve you buy does have float on one channel. Not all two-spool valves do, and a loader is handicapped without it.

If you liked your old controls better, think how you'd like a joystick control . . . those are the berries compared to two levers. Yes, the joystick kit is expensive - I think the Prince unit for their valve assemblies is about $100. But once you've used one, anything else is less."
llamas

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Phil B.

12-25-2003 23:30:36

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Info? in reply to week N warrior / MO, 12-25-2003 16:44:48

Carl, Thanks. I was doing some research on hydraulic cylinders and the valves and found an article written by this Llamas you referenced. He built his own loader and gives a brief description of the work in an article. See the link below. Small world with the Internet...

Link

One question that I have not been able to find an answer to is what "float" means? Sounds important but I've looked and looked but can't find the definition, relative to valves. Thanks.

Phil B.

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ihmike(n.e.tx.)

12-26-2003 00:20:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader Inf in reply to Phil B., 12-25-2003 23:30:36

phil; I am not an operator, just a mechanic. But I remember looking at the cat dozer blade control, at least on the new modern versions. 1980 or so up, that's as far back as I can remember. But "float" position was all the way forward and I think the operator used it mainly for when he was back dragging in reverse. the float position let the blade go up and down freely where every other position would not allow this to happen.

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Phil B.

12-26-2003 08:06:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wagner WM-3 Loader in reply to ihmike(n.e.tx.), 12-26-2003 00:20:21

Thanks, that makes sense. I can see why you would want that for a front loader.

Phil B.

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