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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Holy crap, what did I do?

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Sanlapper

01-24-2004 11:57:02




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Got the new starter and starter drive on, decided to install new relay (12v)whilst I was at it. Much to my surprise the starter started spinning as I attached the last wire to the relay. OOOPS, had the key in from a previous test start, but why did it start without pressing the starter button?
So I turned off the key, and finished wiring but it still fires when I turn the key and of course the starter won't release until I have the key off. (but that shuts off the engine too)
I cleaned the wire attachments to the starter button and I believe those wires are on the right posts (L to R), 1.starter wire 2. black ignition and "resistor" wire 3. starter switch wire 4. pos. batt/ yellow ignition wire.
Do I need a new start switch?
What is the easiest fix? Thanks

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bj/8n/mt

01-24-2004 15:11:30




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 Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to Sanlapper, 01-24-2004 11:57:02  
Part of the joy of twelve volt conversions is there are so many ways to do it. Some of them even work. Without actually seeing how your machine was "improved" I am still going to take a guess at your trouble.

Did you take off a three terminal solenoid and put back a four terminal one? If so put back the three terminal solenoid with the small terminal facing the block. Put the hot battery lead and the ignition lead on the rear big terminal and the starter strap on the front big terminal. That way it will work and preserve the safety feature of the transmission interlock.

Four terminal solenoids come wired a couple of ways and can be made to work. On the other hand, if you have to ask how to check for grounds your best bet is going to be to hook it up the conventional way cause if you go off on some tangent anything becomes possible.

This time I would bet against Dell on a short to ground and put any money I cared to risk on a miswired four pole solenoid.

Your mileage may vary

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sanlapper

01-24-2004 15:43:31




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 Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to bj/8n/mt, 01-24-2004 15:11:30  
Realizing my weaknesses, I documented the wiring before I took off the old 4 terminal relay and put on a new 4 terminal relay. It was easy since the wires had different colored crimps. The wiring is the same as before. Now, of note, the reason I put a new relay on was sometimes when I pushed the tranny switch it would be several seconds before the starter motor would turn and then it would do it only intermitently, as if there were a bad connection. Thanks.

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bj/8n/mt

01-24-2004 15:56:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to sanlapper, 01-24-2004 15:43:31  
Are you sure you have the same style four pole relay as the one you took off? There are a couple of different ways they are wired internally. A short to ground is a short to ground and if that were the trouble it wouldn't matter if the ignition switch were on or off.

The factory style relay is grounded to actuate. Most four pole relays are powered to actuate. Most four pole relays are designed to bypass the ignition resistor for more voltage at start. There are other styles of four pole relay.

I will still call it a wire in the wrong place or a wrong replacement relay rather than a new incuced ground. If it were a short to ground turning the key off shouldn't affect it. Is your transmission switch like factory? If so and if you have a multi meter should read open to ground with the switch off and closed to ground with the switch pushed. If you are powering the relay from the ignition switch then you have an igniton hot wire on the relay actuate pole.

Since when you hold the thing up to the phone I can't see it I can't be much more help. I would still give a lot of thought to putting back a three pole relay designed for this model ford and wiring it like the diagrams in the books. At least that way most folks will have a clue to what is going on.

Your mileage may vary

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Sanlapper

01-25-2004 08:50:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to bj/8n/mt, 01-24-2004 15:56:01  
Dell I will check the switch to ground, I actually do think I can do that.

Turns out after checking the serial number for the relay from the new holland reciept, it is for "ford 2000 series and up". I should have known when the part number didn't start with 8N. I reckon the NH Dealer didn't know I was smart enough to overcome the wreong part.
I think I'll just wire it with the 3 post if the tranny switch works based on the voltometer. Thanks yall.

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Dell (WA)

01-24-2004 13:25:41




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 Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to Sanlapper, 01-24-2004 11:57:02  
Sanlapper..... .....Usually, the OEM 6 volt 3-terminal tractor starter solenoid is quite addequate for 12 volt service. The 3-terminal starter solenoid is internally HOT and you activate the 3-terminal solenoid by GROUNDING the tranny pushbutton safety interlock switch.

The 4-terminal 12 volt starter solenoid is usually hotted by the ignition switch. (which is appearently what you are doing) ...BUT... your trannys safety interlock switch is ALREADY GROUNDED (and it should NOT be) and when you turn your ignition switch on the solenoid then fires and won't turn off untill you turn off your ignition switch.

BETTCHA gotta short to ground in the wire between the tranny switch and your 4-terminal solenoid switch. Find it..... .....Dell

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sanlapper

01-24-2004 14:43:42




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 Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to Dell (WA), 01-24-2004 13:25:41  
yes gspig, its a 4 terminal.

Dell, I reckon I could rewire the terminal to the tranny switch, otherwise I have NO IDEA how to find a short to ground.
The neg batt. wire is bolted to the block nearby but I dont think that could be affecting it.
I have an old 6v relay, I could use it instead and then ground the tranny switch. (which appears to already be grounded) Do the wires go on the terminals in the same order as above except theres no wire from the tranny switch to the relay? thanks!

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Bob

01-25-2004 04:56:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to sanlapper, 01-24-2004 14:43:42  
Your old 4-terminal solenoid must have been the type used for RV batteries, and switching accessory loads. These have the 2 small terminals connected to the ends of the solenoid coil.

You must have replaced it with a Ford-type fender-mount starter solenoid. These have 1 of the small terminals, (labelled "S"), connected to the solenoid coil. The other end of the solenoid coil is connected to the metal mounting base of the solenoid. The other small terminal (labelled "I"), is connected to the battery stud on the solenoid, while the solenoid is activated, to provide a battery voltage bypass to the ignition resistor for better starting.

I could supply you with a NAPA or Standard Ignition number for the solenoid you need, if you would like. Email me, if interested.

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souNdguy

01-24-2004 22:40:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to sanlapper, 01-24-2004 14:43:42  
Do some investigation with the relay and the starter thumb switch. if you have a vom.. check from the thumb switch wire to ground.. shouls show nothing ( open ) untill you hit the switch.. then it should short/0. If you don't have a vom.. use a test light ang check to positive.. hitting hte switch should lite the lite. If it does.. move to the relay.

Some 4 wire relays can be made to work like the old N relay. The ones that work are the isolated kind.. some ford trucks use a isolated starter solenoid on the firewall. Isolated ones don't get ground via the solenoids mounting tabs... but instead have two small connections.. one for hot.. one for ground... wire the batt and starter side as usual, but then wire the hot terminal to the batt side.. and the ground side to your thumb switch... test and see. If it is not an iso switch, and is instead as others mentioned, a resistor bypass switch ( the other small tab provides a 12v line out past the resistor to give the i/c hotter sparks during starting ) then it won't work as you want it too.

Grab your vom / test light and some jumper wires. mount the relay as you normally would on the starter for the check.. and ground the starter to the fram via jumper cables.. so electrically it is as if the starter is installed.

Failing all of this.. the 3 pole 6v solenoid is about 12$ at tractor supply.. and works fine on 12v and will solve your problems lickety split.

Soundguy

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gspig

01-24-2004 12:16:17




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 Re: Holy crap, what did I do? in reply to Sanlapper, 01-24-2004 11:57:02  
Do you have a 4 terminal solenoid switch (relay)?



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