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Heli Coil Q's

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Rick B

02-05-2004 00:09:57




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I posted a message yesterday regarding welding a block on my 49' 8N because of a very poor heli coil installation in one of the cylinder head bolt holes. I just think if I try and let that sleeping dog lie it will just wake up worse later on. To re-cap the situation, the insert was installed crooked and off center. I am now looking at removing the coil and re-drilling to the next size up (1/2") utilizing a jig to get it straight and center. My question is does anyone know of a insert for that size hole that will reduce down to the original 7/16"? Will a 7/16" heli thread into a 1/2" heli? I was thinking that the taps for those where a odd size or pitch. Thnx Bman

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Phil9N

02-05-2004 16:02:51




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
Hey Rick, if you know somebody with a magnetic drill press you can use it to correct your crooked holes and then pu in a heli-coil or keen sert as shown above. Good luck.



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Rick B

02-05-2004 23:36:33




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 Re: Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Phil9N , 02-05-2004 16:02:51  
Im a little late getting back to this but hey thanks everyone for the advise. I made the repair tonight using a 1/2" heli kit ($34.95 at napa) Its kinda tough to describe the exact scenareo but the hole in question was the front right bolt(looking down from above)which puts it between the exhaust port, the block to head water passage hole and the big water pump cavity at the front of the block. The previous fix had wandered into the water port feeding the head. The original bolt hole does penetrate into the main pump cavity so there isnt a lot of material to work with to start. I decided that the 1/2" heli would take the least material and I proceeded with a simple jig of 1/2" thick plate steel(3/4" would be better) and drilled a few oversize holes in it to match up with the cylinder bolt holes(old head gasket makes a good template) and then drilled a hole as close as possible to where the new insert would be using the same bit as my tap bit. I then bolt the plate to the block adjusting its postion to fix the guide hole over the taget area. Using a good hand drill I started the bit at high speed into the block thru the guide hole which keeps the bit from wandering and SLOWLY drilled to depth, the guide plate helping to keep everything straight and centered. Next I took off the guide plate and drilled out the guide hole slightly smaller than the heli coil tap, bolted it back on the block and proceeded to hand tap, the snug guide hole forcing the tap in straight and center. Presto!

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Bill in WI

02-05-2004 12:33:42




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
Ditto on Dell’s assessment of the machining method to straighten the hole. As a Tool & Die maker, I can tell you that a drill will follow the same path as a previously drilled hole. To straighten it, you need to bore it out or plunge with a milling cutter. Hence the need for the milling machine. Another threaded insert, of whatever design, will only yield a crooked bolt hole with good threads.

Another option, similar to what Joe had suggested, is to drill and tap it to an oversize bolt diameter. (Once again, dependent upon enough material being present!) Tap the hole close to the bottom as you can using a taper tap. Get yourself some threaded rod of a suitable material, and turn it in until you start to encounter some resistance. Mark the depth that it entered and remove it. Clamp it into a vise, and use a hacksaw to cut about halfway through it a distance equal to roughly the threaded rod diameter above the depth that you could turn it in. Get a couple of nuts, and lock them together above the cut. Coat liberally with permanent Loctite, and turn it in. using a wrench on the upper nut, you just keep cranking it in until you end up shearing the threaded rod off. This forces the end of the threaded rod into the lower portion of the threads that have not been cut to full depth by the tap. I’ve used this numerous times to “move” dowel holes in stamping dies, and it will never pull out. Now finish up the exposed portion with a grinder, and follow what Joe has said.

If you decide to go with Joe’s plan, (excellent point on the .002” undersize lead in!) I might add the suggestions of putting the pin in the freezer for a while before driving it in, and try to have the block at a warmer temperature. Also add some cylindrical bonding Loctite.

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Tim...OK pic

02-05-2004 08:45:11




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
third party image

Rick, here is a picture of one I just took,they are pretty handy.

Tim



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Dell (WA)

02-05-2004 08:21:27




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
Rick..... ...I understand your concern. NO WELD, ok? Keenserts are the way to go, Helicoil's suck. But the trick is to "square" up your hand drilled heilcoil installation. This takes some sort of machineshop work called a milling machine. (which means hauling your N-Block into machineshop)

The reason you need the milling machine is because your present mucked-up block is OFF-CENTERed by hand drilling and canted (tilted) and you need the X-Y racking of the milling bed to hold the new hole inline with the rest of the block and at right angles with the block deck. The do this with BIG V-8's all the time so yer little N-Engine will be piece of cake.

I've used magnetic base drillpresses and they work if the original hole is to just be "inlarged". But your description of off-centered and slanted heli-coil installation merrits the full machineshop treatment.

The OTHER way to "fixx" a stripped bolthole is drill and tap to next size larger. ...ie... go from 7/16-14 to 1/2-13. This can usually be hand-drilled and hand-tapped because you are using the stripped hole as a pilot hole and not removing much material as you would for using heli-coils. N.B....you have to use "coarse thread" in castiron..... .....Dell

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DavidO

02-05-2004 07:20:43




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
Joe, Your method sounds really good, but I have concerns about drilling the hole too big and going into the water jacket. I would also worry about cracking the cast iron block when pressing/driving in the new plug. I like Tim's solution. Keenserts are great for this type of repair. Try the link below for more information.

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Tim...OK

02-05-2004 03:40:58




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
Rick,
I still think leaving it alone would be the best option,but if you gotta fix it,i would use a keen-sert,the hole gets drilled out considerably larger than it would for a helicoil,then tapped to the appropriate size,you then simply screw the insert into the hole and it has three stakes that you drive in to hold it in place, I work in an aerospace machine shop and these are considered to be better and stronger than original threads in most cases,we use'em every day.

Tim

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B. Jones

02-05-2004 07:22:52




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 Re: Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Tim...OK , 02-05-2004 03:40:58  
I just did a search for Keen-sert and found several posts. Thank you for the information. I don't need one myself right now, but there have been times when I did. I do think that it sounds a lot better than the Heli-coil. I have never had much luck inserting a Heli-coil and getting it right. Maybe I just need more experience.



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Joe (IN)

02-05-2004 02:02:33




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 Re: Heli Coil Q's in reply to Rick B, 02-05-2004 00:09:57  
I don't think that you're going to find a good solution with another heli coil. The damage is already done. If it were me, I would consider essentially starting from scratch. Forget welding the hole up. You need to plug it. First, remove the heli coil that is there now. Beg, borrow, or steel a magnetic base drill or some other sort of drill that will assure that you are at a right angle to the block face. Drill the damaged/crooked threads out. At this point don't be concerned with the proper size or being directly centered on the original hole. Just drill it just big enough and in the correct location to completely remove the mess and leave yourself with a clean hole. Don't go too big or too far away from the original hole, though, or you'll hit a water jacket! Drill to the original depth. Once the mess it hogged out, take the drill bit that you used to any decent machine shop and have them cut you a pin .001" larger than the bit out of mild steel on a lathe. The length should be equal to the depth of your hole or 1/16" or so longer. Have him cut one end of it to actually be about .002" undersize for about half an inch. Start the undersize portion into your hole and tap it in with a hammer. This will get it started straight. Rig up some sort of a press jig over the pin and press it the rest of the way into the block. File it down flush with the deck. Now your hole is plugged. Bolt the head onto the block with a couple bolts and center punch the center of the hole with an alignment punch. They come in a kit in many sizes to fit different size holes. Pop the head back off and use your mag base drill to drill a 3/16" pilot hole. Follow it with the correct size for 7/16" threads (haven't got my chart handy). Run your tap in and you're done. I pulled this trick off in an old flathead V-8 block one time. It worked like a charm. The hardest part is getting ahold of a mag base drill. Tool rental places will probably have one. Good luck!

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