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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Misconceptions about the N engine

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raytasch

02-22-2004 16:39:07




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For many years I have heard folks say the N engine is a variation of the V8 60, V8 85, V8 100 and even a variation of the model A engine. This is not true. Although there may be some design similarities of some parts the N tractor engine does not share engine family with any of the above mentioned engines. The N is not half of any engine mentioned above nor is it a modified engine of any of the above. The N engine was used in various industrial and military applications and in a few automotive applications. ray

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PloughNman

02-23-2004 16:21:33




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 Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to raytasch, 02-22-2004 16:39:07  
Hey Gang-
In the book, "FORD FARM TRACTORS" by Randy Leffingwell, on pages 124 and 125 in the chapter titled "CREATING THE N", he quotes Howard Simpson, one of the engineers on the 9N tractor design, "...Adolph Eckert designed the engine, 'incorporating as many standard Mercury parts as possible'..." Also he goes on to quote Howard:

"one of the basic policies governing design of the 9N was of using as many high-production standard parts as possible." Ferguson was opposed because n=he believed those parts to be inferior for a tractor escpecially differential gears for Ford trucks.

The tractor engine was devised, essentially, by slicing the new Mercury 95-horsepower V8 engine in half.

I myself do not know all of the details involved like number of head bolts but I assume some differences would be needed to be made, it is just common sense.

Tim "PloughNman" Daley

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raytasch

02-23-2004 18:41:40




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 Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to PloughNman, 02-23-2004 16:21:33  
Thanks Tim for clearing up where that misconception comes from. This must be what perpetuates the belief. Howard Simpson was certainly speaking figurativly. I am not familiar with that particular book but I would question some of the more popular Ford tractor books as being accurate. One book I can think of that is listed as an authority on originallity has dozens of glaring errors. Only if one has an imagination could he see the N as half of a flathead Ford or Merc. V8. Design similarities, yes. I still would ask what parts are interchangable? I stand by my original statements. The N engine is not half of a V8 or a sleeved model A.
ray===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =
"The tractor engine was devised, essentially, by slicing the new Mercury 95-horsepower V8 engine in half."

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Philip

02-23-2004 04:02:44




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 Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to raytasch, 02-22-2004 16:39:07  
The 120 cubic inch flat head four, that we are familiar with in our N series tractor, along with jeeps, truck, generators, and air compressors just to mention a few, is directly related and shares many parts with the 239 cubic inch Mercury and Ford flat head V-8's of the 1930's and 1950's. Philip.



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raytasch

02-23-2004 09:16:05




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 Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to Philip, 02-23-2004 04:02:44  
Phillip, anyone, Can we name just four parts of the "many" that are interchangable between the N series and the V8 series?
I don't think the 239 cid V8 came till after the war, around 1946.
respectfully,
ray, who always wants to learn something new



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Jag

02-23-2004 11:15:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to raytasch, 02-23-2004 09:16:05  
I've got a 1939 Ford 1 1/2 ton truck that I just went to North Dakota and brought back, I'm going to Restore it to haul the 1939 9N that I'm restoring right now. Any way the truck has the ( all new for 39) 95 HP engine...the 229 cu in upgrade of the 85 HP 221.Thats as much as I know about it till I get a little more into it. Thanks Jason



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Philip

02-23-2004 09:55:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to raytasch, 02-23-2004 09:16:05  
Ray, the Mercury 221 cubic inch V8 came out in 1932, which is in the same family as the Ford 239 cubic inch V8 which came out in 1940 (about the same time as the 9N). This engine family ran until 1953. I have a book titled 'How To Build the Ford Flathead V8'. The parts and specifications for this V8 engine family are the same as our N series tractor, as described in this book. Find you a copy of this at your local book store, you will enjoy it. Philip.

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raytasch

02-23-2004 10:47:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N engine in reply to Philip, 02-23-2004 09:55:16  
Phillip, I don't have the time to document all my statements right now but lets start with the basics. Sure, the same engineers probably designed many of the similarities into the V8s and the N engines but that is where the sameness ends. Granted, the V8 Merc pistons will work in a bare block N. Granted, they all have similar valve trains, although different dimensions, and the early variations of other engines have front crankshaft driven oil pumps. Didn't the V8s use camshaft bearings? N did not. Note, I say similar but dimensions are different. Crank pin diameters are different; not much but different. Some of the early V8s had sleeves. Some of the earlier V8s had free floating bearing inserts if I remember right. Bore spacings are different between Ns and V8s. The V8s have different numbers of head studs/bolts and different patterns. Didn't the V8s used a simese (sp) exhaust port in the center of the block. N did not. If I remember right the exhaust valve arrangement of the V8s caused block cracking due to concentration of heat. Just a few difference. Not the same family other than Ford, probably the same engineers. Mercury did not even come on the scene untill 1939. respectfully,
ray

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Philip

02-24-2004 04:07:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N eng in reply to raytasch, 02-23-2004 10:47:45  
Ray, I have no doubt that the N and 239 V8 engines are of the same design. I encourage you to obtain a copy of 'Ford Flathead V-8 Builder's Handbook, 1932-1935', by Frank Oddo, published by Fisher Books, ISBN 1-55561-119-2. After looking through the pictures and reading the paragraphs, the similarities are everywhere. By the way, I had my Ford and Mercury dates reversed. The V8 uses cross flow heads, and the V8 bore spacing is wider due to the extra connecting rod on every crank throw. Philip.

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raytasch

02-24-2004 06:20:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Misconceptions about the N in reply to Philip, 02-24-2004 04:07:48  
Phillip, Read my reply to Tim above. I am sure the quote he mentions is what produced this misconception. I know it is hard to repudiate an engineer who was "there". The original intent was probably as he remembers but the final product was not. Again, I agree there are design similarities as I would expect to come from an inhouse engineering group. I know not what your book says but I have worked on/played with enough of both of these engines to know there is no part interchangeablity. There is no way an N is 1/2 a V8. There are design similarities but that is where the likeness ends. As you say the V8 is crossflow, the N is side. This would eliminate any belief that the N is 1/2 a V8 as is theory. The block castings are totally different. Bore is very close but pistons are not interchangeable. Strokes are the same. V8 rods are quite narrow as compared to the N. Valve assemblies on the V8 are much larger. Cam, of course is totally different and then the V8 uses cam bearings. Oil pump on the V8 is at the rear of the engine and oil is piped to the camshaft before going to the crankshaft if I remember right. On the N the oil goes to a common passage and to the crankshaft and cam. The N oil pump is crankshaft driven and the pump is built into the front main cap. Oil pump on the V8 is rear cam driven close to the fuel pump cam. N has provision for the fuel pump on front side of the block and the cam lobe is on the cam shaft near the front. Rod bearing diameters and widths are different. Mains the same. And the list could go on. Phillip, I' will look for the book you mention. I maintain my initial statement that the N is not half of any V8.
Respectfully,
ray

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