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Another Electrical Question for the Experts

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Baggsy

02-05-2001 09:26:46




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Just got through with a total rework of an electrical system on an old 6 volt tractor (sorry, not an "N", but seems like some folks out here really know their electrical). Has a generator with a one wire voltage regulator. New 0 gauge cables, new ampmeter, new wires. Had the generator checked out as ok from a local shop. The old volt-reg was cooked, and they recommended a new sealed unit for replacement. It's a small silver unit sealed with wax and has an I/C in it I think. Everything hooked up to the manuals schematic except for the taillight which I hooked up to the live side of the ampmeter so I could test it without starting the tractor. The wire from the volt-reg goes to the + side of the ampmeter. 10 gauge wire from the '-' side of ampmeter to the battery side of the starter button. Started the tractor this weekend as it FINALLY warmed up a bit, and I'm getting a charge of 19 amps showing on the ampmeter. Voltmeter shows 9 volts coming out of the volt-reg and 9 volts showing up on the battery. The battery is a couple years old, but seems to hold it's charge. I might have run it down a bit getting it started, but 19 amps!?! I'm wondering now if the 'new' volt-reg is whacked, or is it sensing that the battery is low/low/low? I ran it at high idle long enough to test the two voltages above, but was afraid to keep it up for fear of frying the battery. Any thoughts of what might be going on here? Thanks for your help!

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Jim WI

02-05-2001 10:42:49




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 Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Baggsy, 02-05-2001 09:26:46  
Think we might need some clarification here...

How many wires come out of the generator?

If there's only one and it runs to the "voltage regulator" and then on to the battery, you've got a third-brush generator that needs adjusting. If this is the case, there should be an adjustment mechanism someplace on the generator.

If there's more than one wire out of the generator then you've got something else and we need to know what year, make and model of tractor you have since you say it's a stock system. Then someone familiar with that tractor can probably tell you exactly what to do with it.

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Baggsy

02-05-2001 10:54:32




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 Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Jim WI, 02-05-2001 10:42:49  
It's a single wire coming out of the generator. It's hooked to the voltage regulator. Output of the volt-reg goes to the + side of the ampmeter. I'm sure it's a three brush generator. It's on a Case SI, 1948 vintage. After all the color wars on 'Tractor Talk' of late, I was hesitant to say what it was...but I sure wouldn't mind having an 'N' someday!



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Jim WI

02-06-2001 11:23:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Baggsy, 02-05-2001 10:54:32  
Since it's only one wire out of the generator it's a third-brush generator and the "voltage regulator" probably isn't. It's more likely a good-sized diode.

Most likely, the problem is that the generator is putting out too much power. It should have an adjustment mechanism for the position of the third-brush. This is the only thing that controls the output of the generator.

On N's, I usually tell people to adjust the screw so that they get three or four amps of charge into the battery. This is a compromise between keeping the battery charged and not overcharging it.

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Al English

02-05-2001 10:24:15




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 Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Baggsy, 02-05-2001 09:26:46  
Hi Baggsy, I don't think this is the problem, but start by verifying there is no excessive resistance in the wiring, terminals, battery cable connections, etc., AND, that nothing is shorting or leaking significant power to ground. A load large enough to cause a problem like this can be found by removing one of the battery cables, turning everything off, then touching the cable to the battery post. A small spark will be seen if there is a significant load or short. You could have a defective regulator, but I don't think so. The fact your old regulator gave up is a clue. The true regulator of a charging system is the battery. The regulator is really a sensor that monitors battery condition & adjusts accordingly. If the battery has a problem the regulator can't tell the battery is lying to it. I've seen plenty of alternators and regulators(especially solid state ones) toasted by bad batteries. The voltage/amperage readings you are getting make me very suspicious of the battery. Fully charge the battery & have a load vs voltage test done on it. A battery shop, or a good garage, will have the equipment to do this test. The alternator test done by most parts stores is a go/no-go test. If the preceeding suggestions don't find the problem, the same poeple who have the equipment to test your battery will be able to do a similar in-tractor test on your alternator. Hope this helps.....Al English

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Al English

02-05-2001 10:27:08




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 Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Al English, 02-05-2001 10:24:15  
I just realized we were dealing with a generator. But that doesen't change anything I said.



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Phil (AZ)

02-05-2001 09:56:45




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 Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Baggsy, 02-05-2001 09:26:46  
Baggley,
"which I hooked up to the live side of the ampmeter so I could test it without starting the tractor."

Both sides of the ammeter are live! one side comes from the Battery as you describe and the other is metered through the ammeter.

What does the Ammeter "Say" when Ignition is OFF
If you show current flowing your Reg (CUTOUT) may
be backwards Does the Charging Voltage/Current go down when you adjust the 3rd brush

Hope this helps

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Baggsy

02-05-2001 10:28:38




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 Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Phil (AZ), 02-05-2001 09:56:45  
Let me see if I can explain this right...I'm kinda green at this so bear with me. The one wire from the vol-reg (10 gauge) goes into the + side of the ampmeter. The - (minus) side is 10 gauge wire that goes to the same side of the starter button that the battery cable connects to. When tractor is off, ampmeter goes back to zero. Never adjusted a third brush before...



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Phil (AZ)

02-05-2001 12:43:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Baggsy, 02-05-2001 10:28:38  
Baggsy, The "One" wire GEN is not regulated in the
true form. The Gen operates as a Stand-alone with an Adjustable 3rd Brush that sets the current in the field, its (GEN) output is not regulated by a feedback circuit and is constant.

The Output is feed to the "cutout" relay that connects or disconnects the feed to the battery. (Normally Connects when Gen exceeds Bat voltage)

Your electronic one (cutout) should ALSO detect Bat Voltage and disconnect at a (its) designed Voltage.

Hope this Helps

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Bus Driver

02-06-2001 05:11:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Electrical Question for the Experts in reply to Phil (AZ), 02-05-2001 12:43:46  
Not an expert, but noticed that no one mentioned the voltage of the battery being used. Suppose that it is an 8 volt battery and the owner does not realize it. 9 volts output seems plausible under such circumstances because of the voltage applied to the field coils. So one good question is, if the battery has fill caps on top, how many of them does it have? If 3 caps, it is a 6 volt battery. If 4 caps, it is an 8 volt battery.

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