Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Discussion Forum
:

12 VOLT CONVERSION

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
peterc

02-07-2001 06:14:34




Report to Moderator

when you do a conversion to 12 volt you go from positive ground to negative ground. you have to put a resistor in series with the coil.now my question, do you have to swap the connections at the coil because of the polarity change




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Steve(CO)

02-07-2001 07:51:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to peterc, 02-07-2001 06:14:34  
Regarding the polarity question on a sidemount 12 volt negative ground conversion. Should the wire from the 12v to 6v dropping resistor go to the + or the - side of the 6v coil?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
+ / Claus

02-07-2001 08:01:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Steve(CO) , 02-07-2001 07:51:32  
+



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA)

02-07-2001 07:36:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to peterc, 02-07-2001 06:14:34  
Peter..... ...Al and Claus are correct. On the sidemount 8N you can do it. BUT unfortunately, on the frontmount Ignition coil, there is only 1 connection, in which case, it becomes impossible to swap coil polarity and ya' justs gotts to live with it.

Other polarity notes: N-Starters don't care, positive or negative ground works for it. Headlights don't care, positive or negative ground as long as the ground is good. BUT the AMPMETER does care (kinda). You'll have to swap leads around so that the plus on the ampmeter indicates plus when the battery is being charged.

The ampmeter doesn't care, 6 or 12 volts ok. Headlights do care. 12 volts on 6 volt lightbulbs burnout in just about 1 second. Change your headlights to 12 volt types.

Starter only kinda cares about 12 volts. Which is part of the reason most convert to 12 volts as 12 volts really makes the starter turn fast and consequently starts the engine faster too. Starter does care if you crank away for more that about 30 seconds as you will OVERHEAT the starter and cause the starter guts to puke. Give it a 5 minute break before cranking again. Normally, most 12 volt converted engines start in less than 5 seconds.

Hope this helps..... ...Dell

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-07-2001 07:58:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Dell (WA), 02-07-2001 07:36:04  
Dell, I like your terminology "Causes the starter guts to puke". Now Phil(AZ) would have said "due to the increased I square R heating, the starter commutator would throw solder"
Happy Motoring
Claus



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Phil (NZ)

02-07-2001 09:42:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 07:58:30  
Claus, The polarity issues are clouded by the fact that the Primary & Secondary are internally Connected “On One Side”. YES ! you can flip the polarity of the output BUT in doing so you pay a penalty. In simple terms; If I converted to 12V (side mount) I would buy a “generic” 12 Volt coil or use one from an old 12 volt Vehicle.

JMHO



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-07-2001 09:57:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Phil (NZ), 02-07-2001 09:42:00  
Phil, nothing cloudy about it. Yes we know that the word coil is a misnomer. It is actually an auto transformer. Reversing the polarity of the primary has nothing to do with the output potential. It has everything to do with the polarity of the output pulse in respect to ground. We (Some of us) would like this pulse to be negative) for reasons that I and others have stated on numerous occasions.
Happy Motoring
Claus

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-07-2001 10:17:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 09:57:45  
Claus, this is getting interesting. I have agreed with everything you have said on this subject, except that polatity does not effect output. From a physical standpoint the coil is symetrical, and from a common sense standpoint, should not care about the poplarity of the current that creates the magnetism that excites the windings. I don't have a technical explination as to how or why incorrect coil polarity lowers secondary output, but the results are observable on a scope.....Al English

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
PHI (AZ)

02-07-2001 14:29:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-07-2001 10:17:43  
AL, "I don't have a technical explination as to how or why incorrect coil polarity lowers secondary output, but the results are observable on a scope....." Al English

The scope will provide "Proof" positive. If claus is correct (secondary influence) Just Change the polarity of the tractor and measuring before & after. I think you will find that only the polarity of the secondary will change but the amplitude will be the same.

Then Flip the Coil and do the same comparisons.
I think you will find that both will be lower and opposite in polarity Magic its not!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-07-2001 11:15:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-07-2001 10:17:43  
Coil polarity does not change the spark potential, (voltage) you do however get a hotter spark when the coil is properly polarized, this is due to the center electrode being hotter than the ground electrode and therefor we want the center eletrode negative. A hotter electrode will emit more electrons. This is due to thermal agitation of the free electrons. It is afterall current that starts the combustion process. Obviously, you need high potential to facilitate dilectric puncture of the gap. If I have a positive ground then the positive of the coil needs to go to the points and when I have a negative ground then the negative terminal of the coil should go to the points.
Happy Motoring
Claus

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fred OH

02-08-2001 10:54:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 11:15:44  
"Thermal agitation", I had a girlfriend like that once. (grin) L8R----Fred OH



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-07-2001 16:04:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 11:15:44  
Great, now I have Phil AND Claus on my case. Before moving on to other things I was a mechanic for nine years and have settled this same arguement more than once using a scope. But assuming you guys wouldn't take this lying down, I gave the subject some thought this afternoon. I think I have an explination. Eliminating some magneto coils, double ended coils that fire two plugs at once, some old mallorys and other exotics, leaves the standard ignition coil we are all familiar with. These are wired as follows:

+ one end of primary winding AND one end of secondary winding
- other end of primary winding
Coil Wire other end of secondary winding.

With the coil connected correctly the secondary communicates directly with the ungrounded side of the battery on one end, and with ground via the spark plug on the other. Reversing the primary connections places the primary winding between the secondary winding and the ungrounded side of the battery. Not only is the primary now in series with the secondary, the secondary is now affecting the harmonic interaction between the primary windings and the condensor. This interaction is critical to good spark output(if you don't believe me try running the engine without a condensor). I suspect the reduced spark output I've observed is likely due more to this, than to the few ohms of added resistance caused by placing the primary in series with the secondary. Based on what I've just explained, the practice of reversing the primary connections when changing from pos to neg ground is incorrect. Your turn.....Al English

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA)

02-07-2001 21:36:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-07-2001 16:04:32  
Al..... Jim's got the right answer for why spark coil polarity is important, Edison effect (thermonic emission). Electrons like to go from negative to positive.

Claus is correct that the ignition coil is what in other electronic fields is called an autotransformer. This means that there is an internal junction common to both the primary and the secondary winding of the transformer.

As I remember it, the common autotransformer terminal is the terminal that goes to the points.

The coil polarity has nothing to do with the battery voltage. It has everything to do with the direction of coil windings (CW or CCW) with respect to each other.

You are correct that the 1 to 3 ohms resistance of the primary with respect to the 5,000 to 10,000 ohms of the secondary will and should have neglegable effect on the secondary voltage to the sparkies.

But its the magnetic field polarity as set up by the direct current in the primary that has a major effect on the enduced secondary voltage when your points open. which is what you have observed by your scope. Your can loose up to 25% of your sparkies with incorrect polarity.

All is just fine, as long as the coil produces more than enuff sparkies. Once the ionized gap voltage has been exceeded, pow! ignition. It doesn't matter how much extra sparkies, just as long as you have enuff.

Remember the ionizing voltage depends not only on the gap of the sparkplug, but also on the compression, and also on the metalic ion wear that rounds edges of the electrodes (voltage likes to jump from sharp edges) and surface film resistance.

Modern sparkplugs really are miracles. I've put as much as 50,000 miles on 'em before I changed 'em in my non-stock '69 BMW 2002. I changed 'em because I was going to the BMW's club driving school at Seattle International Raceway. I really couldn't tell any difference, but boy did I have fun. (grin)

It certainly has been a sparkling topic..... Dell

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-08-2001 05:55:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Dell (WA), 02-07-2001 21:36:06  
Dell, thanks for your post. For 15 years I made cutaway displays for auto shows, trade shows, introductions, training, etc. During that time I made a number of ignition coil displays. My memory was as you stated. The common connection is the one that connects to the points. But before I wrote my post to Phil and Claus I looked in the Ford tractor manual next to the computer and their schematic shows the opposite. In the pre-Fiat days Ford Tractor & Ford-New Holland were one of my largest accounts. Although there were some good people there, I met no one who was perfect. That being the case I'm not sure whether the manual is wrong, or whether my memory has betrayed me...Al English

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-08-2001 06:52:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-08-2001 05:55:54  
If the common connection allways went to groun then the coil polarity would change if one changed the polarity of the ground. It was only in the early days that automobiles had a polsitive ground. Most likely, in the days you worked on systems, everything you came in contact with was negatively grounded as this system became the norm. Happy Motoring
Claus



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-08-2001 06:52:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-08-2001 05:55:54  
If the common connection allways went to groun then the coil polarity would change if one changed the polarity of the ground. It was only in the early days that automobiles had a polsitive ground. Most likely, in the days you worked on systems, everything you came in contact with was negatively grounded as this system became the norm. Happy Motoring
Claus



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-08-2001 07:26:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-08-2001 06:52:14  
Ok Claus....I'm not THAT old(51). But I'd did restore old cars for several years. Most English sports cars were posative ground, and I also spent a few years working on those mechanical wonders. You're right. The schematic I referred to was a Ford tractor, which IS posative ground, thus the reversed connections. I just checked one of my Austin manuals and it also shows same reversed coil polarity. Hasn't this been fun?.....Al English

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Phil (AZ)

02-08-2001 01:11:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Dell (WA), 02-07-2001 21:36:06  
"The only consensus is that there is no consensus" ..unknown



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jim WI

02-07-2001 10:35:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Al English, 02-07-2001 10:17:43  
Think "Edison Effect" and "vacuum tubes".

Or maybe "thermionic valves" -- given your name ;^)

Electrons leave a hot surface more easily than a cool surface. A big part of spark plug design is keeping the electrode hot (but not too hot).



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-07-2001 08:22:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 07:58:30  
Hi Claus, I'm guess I'm not as bad as Phil, but the guys in the shop are careful what they ask me unless they need a break. I have a tendence to end up telling someone how to build a watch when all they wanted to know is what time it was..... Al English



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Al English

02-07-2001 06:55:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to peterc, 02-07-2001 06:14:34  
I agree with Claus. Most coils are internally wired to allow connecting either way, but incorrect coil polarity results in lower spark output. The fact that the engine will run with the coil polarity reversed leads some believe it doesn't matter. If a particular engines ignition requirement doesn't exceed the lowered spark output, then a case could be made that in that particular circumstance it doesn't matter, but why not have all the spark the system was designed to deliver. It might come in handy some cold morning when the choke was left out too long.....Al English

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Claus

02-07-2001 06:28:09




Report to Moderator
 Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to peterc, 02-07-2001 06:14:34  
You do not have to. Some will tell you that it does not matter. In fact, it does matter. Why else bother to put polarity symbols on the coil.
Happy Motoring
Claus



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fred OH

02-08-2001 11:38:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 12 VOLT CONVERSION in reply to Claus, 02-07-2001 06:28:09  
After enjoying all the critique on this subject (from the knowledgeable minds), I got to wondering about old theories versus new. Years ago it was accepted that electrons flowed from positive to negative. The modern scanning electron microscope now tells us that electrons flow from negative to positive, right? Maybe this is why Al is seeing it as coming from a manual as this was accepted fact back then. And the difference in opinion is because of the reversal of the electron travel from then as to now? You guys better be careful throwing all these electrical terms around, the next thing you know, they'll be making square electrode sparkplugs. Or one big terminal and one small terminal on coils so you can't hook one up wrong and it'll all be your fault.
PS I made a post about hollow hydraulic cylinders yesterday and this morning got an email from a foreign hydraulics manufacturer. L8R----Fred OH

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy