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How Badly Can I Screw It Up???

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8Ngine

02-19-2001 19:36:59




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Okay. I'm either gonna fix this this thing or see if I can put a hole in the block with a .375 H&H.

Starts right up. First time, every time. Misses, spits, sputters, sounds like it's fuel hungry. I can run it, but placing any kind of load cause backfiring and missing that sounds like a .375 H&H. A real crack of a backfire, loudest I've ever heard. Carb is getting plenty of fuel. Where it goes from there, I don't know. Unscrewed the drain from the carb. The fuel that came out was clean, no sediment. Tank is full of new gasoline.

Let me tell you folks, I'm a computer geek/horse trainer. I don't know what breed that is, but I ain't got no tractor mechanic blood in me, that's for sure.

Tomorrow new, wires. Did the new plugs today. I know about the metal wires and soldering. I can pull that off. If that doesn't work, I'm going to the front mount dist. I can point with my mouse on the computer, but I seriously doubt if I can find the points in the dist. If I saw it done once, I could do it, but I haven't. Next will come a new coil. I can handle that one.

How badly can I screw up this tractor? Right now, it at least starts and I can go for a Sunday morning drive around the farm if I don't have much of a breakfast. The backfiring might wake up the neighbors, but hey, life's too short to spend all day in bed anyway. Playing with the distributor, points, timing, etc... am I likely to do something for which I would be castrated if I lived in China? There are backyard mechanics around here, been there, done that. Would be glad to pay to have it done (to a point). Compression is 90+ on all 4. Plugs get a little carbon, little oil, but hey, it's 52 years old. Gimme hope, gimme support or

gimme my gun!

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8Ngine Not A Fuel Problem

02-20-2001 12:56:20




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
Okay. Checked the flow of gas to the carb. It's fine. Came out in steady stream (middle aged man). Opened the plug on the bottom of the carb. Plenty of gas in it. It rained last night and it had some trouble starting , but depressed the clutch to disengage the PTO and it fired.

Can't get the distributor off. Can get the cap off, the coil off, but can't get the left nut off (funny, I've had that problem before) (sorry 'bout that)) to free the dist from the block. The cap looks to be in very good shape, very clean. Can't get to the rest of the dist until I can get it off. Have applied some penetrating oil to the bolt.

At least I know fuel's getting to the carb.

I do believe in Murphy's law.

Will keep you posted.

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Russ in SoCal

02-20-2001 11:08:58




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
8Ngine,
When you were posting back and forth with Al, you used the phrase "the line to the sediment bowl is disconnected from the gas tank."
There is no "line" between the sediment bowl and the tank. Were you and Al talking apples and oranges?
The sediment bowl mounts to the bottom of the gas tank.
My 2cents is check the "free stuff" first, as in fuel restriction as Al said. When I had a restriction, I first pulled the plug from the bottom of the carb, then worked back up the line towards the tank until I found the crud.
Do you have an I&T FO-4 manual? Working on the front mount distributor is a breeze the second time, especially with the repair manual.
FWIW & Good Luck,
Russ

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Al English

02-20-2001 13:10:53




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 Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Russ in SoCal, 02-20-2001 11:08:58  
Hi Russ, Apples and oranges..... more like grapefruit. When he was talking about the line from the tank to the sedimant bowl I had a mental picture of my 601. Sounds like maybe someone changed things around a little on his 8N...Al English



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Brad

02-20-2001 06:49:27




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
Sounds like the condensor.



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bj/8N/mt

02-20-2001 07:06:51




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 Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Brad, 02-20-2001 06:49:27  
concur--condensor is a prime suspect


front mount distributors aren't hard to work on if you do it on the bench

I know of a documented case of a lawyer successfully changing points and condensor in one

don't try to do it on the tractor. arrange the plug wires so you can put them back the way they came off; undo the wire on top of the coil; release the coil bale and remove coil; pull clips and remove cap--note rotor position; take out two cap screws; you can maneuver distributor around fan and fan belt; then do it on the bench. Impossible to screw up timing unless you try.

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Salmoneye

02-20-2001 02:25:27




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
There are 3 screens in the N fuel system.
There is one inside the brass elbow at the carb.
There is one above the sediment bowl (glass part) at the fuel shutoff valve, and there is one on top of the shutoff valve inside the tank.
You have to unscrew the shutoff from the tank to get this last one and you should empty the tank before you remove it!

You are sure the gas is opened at least 2 full turns from closed, right? Fully close and fully open the valve a couple of times with the carb end of the line stuck in a mason jar and watch the flow. You may have an obstruction in the valve itself that this could cure. If that doesn't do it, loosen the cap and see if it flows then. If none of this helps, you will then have to drain the tank and clean those screens.

As someone on this illustrious board so elloquently put it a while back, if you remove the fuel line at the carb and look at the flow of gas into a glass jar, the gas should flow about as fast as a man taking a healthy pee...

HTH

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9n'er

02-20-2001 03:59:20




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 Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Salmoneye, 02-20-2001 02:25:27  
Salmoneye: Just to pursue the eloquence of that famous post in the archives; "healthy pee?" is that before or after favorite beverages?

;) Njoy the day. 9N'er



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Is that ........bg

02-20-2001 05:46:08




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 Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 9n'er, 02-20-2001 03:59:20  
....a young man or an old man?



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Salmoneye

02-20-2001 04:32:12




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 Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 9n'er, 02-20-2001 03:59:20  
Hey 9N'er!!! Heat wave today here...30 above for now!

As for the 'healthy' part...
There are 3 stages during imbibing Adult Beverages, and they are:

1. Healthy

2. Like a Racehorse

and,

3. Oops...Too late...

:-)



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Plug Wiring? 1,2,4 ,3

02-19-2001 20:17:35




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
.



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Al English

02-19-2001 19:51:49




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 Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:36:59  
Hi 8Ngine, Before you put an end to your ole pals suffering let's see if we can't save him. I am confident your problem will be found in one of the following areas. Either spark getting where it doesen't belong via a bad cap, bad wires, or mixed up plug wires; or; a valve is bent or burned(do a compression check), a valve spring is collapsed or broken, or a valve guide is rusty resulting in a valve that does not close properly. I know that's a pretty big homework assignment, but if you need any guidance I'm sure you'll get plenty of help here. Good luck...Al English

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8Ngine

02-19-2001 19:58:44




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 Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Al English, 02-19-2001 19:51:49  
Compression check done. Above 90 PSI on all 4. Haven't changed the wires and it was running fine before all this happened, so pretty sure the wires aren't crossed. I looked at the dist diagrams on nseries.com. If I screw up the timing or points am I going to ruin the tractor. She's (Charlene) been a strong runner and I wouldn't want to cause her any more pain than she's in now. Thanks.



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Al English

02-19-2001 20:54:45




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 Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 19:58:44  
Well.....there's probably a nicer way to say this but, if it ran ok before you worked on it, then odds are pretty high that the problem is a result of something you did. If the timing is off that is not good for the tractor. Definitely don't work the tractor if the timing is off. Even a lean fuel mixture could cause backfiring, but I would triple check the plug wire firing order. Apologize to Charlene for me, without my glasses I didn't see that she is a lady...Al English

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8Ngine

02-19-2001 21:05:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Al English, 02-19-2001 20:54:45  
I didn't change anything, or install new plugs (which is all I've done at this point) until she missed, backfired and tried to die on me under a load.

Something I was just thinking about: Since this is a gravity fed fuel machine, once the line to the sediment bowl is disconnected from the gas tank, shouldn't fuel run out of the tank? I disconnected it (line from sediment bowl to tank) today and no fuel ran out of the tank. Then I reconnected the sediment bowl to the tank, still no fuel to the bowl UNTIL I cranked the engine, which I would guess created suction. Why is suction necessary to fill the sediment bowl with fuel if it's gravity fed? Could it be blockage at the tank filter/screen or is cranking necessary to pump the gas already in the carb into the cyls to make room for the gas coming out of the tank? Hope that ? makes sense. Thanks, Al.

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Al English

02-19-2001 21:25:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 21:05:57  
Sounds like you have found the problem. Yes, fuel should run out of the disconnected fuel line. And no, the engine does not pump or suck fuel from the tank. Fuel is delivered from the tank to the carburetor by gravity. However, if the engine is choked, a SLIGHT vacuum may be present in the float chamber. So, as I mentioned, a lean fuel mixture can cause backfiring. But ignition being a more common problem, I suspected that was the cause. I assume you know about the fuel shut-off located on the bottom of the tank. If that is turned on and no fuel is flowing, simply track down the obstruction in your fuel line or valve. And with this done be sure to flush out the line by letting a little fuel flow through it. Otherwise rust or dirt may cause the float needle to stick open...Al English

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8Ngine

02-19-2001 21:41:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Al English, 02-19-2001 21:25:43  
Just to make sure we're on the same page : Once I disconnect the line that comes from the tank to the sediment bowl, shouldn't gas just pour out of the tank or is there something in the line connection that opens a valve of sorts in the bottom of the tank that allows the gas to flow. Unless I have the bowl connected to the tank and the engine cranking, no gas will run out of the tank into the bowl. I've been reading other posts and one fellow mentioned air lock inside the tank. Another mentioned a vent on top of the gas tank. But, the way I see it, gas should run out of the bottom of the tank whether there's a line connnected to it or not or whether the engine is cranking or not. Doesn't that make sense? We've got vent's on our gas cans and even if the vent is closed we can still get SOME flow out of the can. I would think the same would hold true here, providing there are no obstruction. And if this is true, the only obstruction would be the filter/screen in the tank. No?

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Al English

02-19-2001 22:19:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to 8Ngine, 02-19-2001 21:41:26  
I agree with everything you said. Some tractors do have an engine operater fuel shut-off, but yours is not one of those. Check for a plugged tank filter, "crud" in the valve, or an obstruction in the line. To check the tank vent put a container under the end of the open fuel line, open the valve, and establish normal fuel flow. Then, without stopping, replace the cap & observe whether the flow of fuel is slowly reduced or stopped. If installing the cap significantly reduces or stops the flow of fuel the vent is not open. Sounds like you're almost there. Good luck...Al English

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Larry 8N75381

02-20-2001 04:54:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Badly Can I Screw It Up??? in reply to Al English, 02-19-2001 22:19:59  
Here is what "crud" looks like!

third party image

In this case, with the gas tank cap off (so there was NO question of vacuum lock!) and the sediment bowl off, I could NOT even get the last gallon of gas to drip out. It came out ONLY after I removed the valve assy from the tank. It was "fun" trying to catch the gas pouring out. :-(

Here is another picture of a "crudded up" valve top screen along side of a new one.

third party image

I also had the screen at the top of the sedement bowl plug up. Tractor had been running fine, when all of a sudden it wouldn't run worth a plugged nickle - like yours I'd guess - under ANY load, even just moving it's self!

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