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HELP. 9N WON'T START

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RON MORENCY

07-03-2004 10:24:01




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Hello, This morning 9n starts up first try. Running for a couple of minutes I shut it off to change implements. When I try to restart, at first it hesitated but did not start. I tried 5-6 times. Thought I might have flooded it? Let it rest a bit then tried again. Nothing. Seems like the battery was ok but no start. Checked to make sure key was in correct position, fuel flow was ok, checked battery with a multi tester, Showed 6 volts. Got a battery charger/starter and tried to jump by putting negative on a good ground and positive to the starter post. Sparks at the astarter but no noise? Thought that the starter drive could be stuck in the flywheel? tried to hit the starter and housing with a hammer to see if it would loosen? nothing. I thought about taking out the starter to see if it was stuck but the question is ? How do you take out the starter? New battery (Napa 7244 bought maybe 4 months ago). Is there something else I could do? Could the battery not have enough "juice" to start even though it measures 6 volts with a multi tester? Could the starter drive be engaged in the flywheel? Now when I hit the starter button, nothing. Please help I have alot of work to do with it this weekend. Thank you

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souNdguy

07-03-2004 21:38:25




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
Boy.. what a mess.

First.. you need to verify what the polarity of that alternator is.. and then get the battery installed the correct way.

Second.. you need to see if the bendix is hung in the flywheel... Put the tractor in neutral, and use a 12v battery as a donor and try to spin that starter around... don't attempt to start it.. just spin it using jumper cables.. directly to the starter solenoid switched side.. and ground. If it spins.. it ain't hung up.. if it is hung up.. put the tractor in high gear, and then rock it back and forth with the rear tire.. that usually free's it up. If you do pull the starter.. don't pull the long screws out.. and if you pull it with the bendix hung up.. it's gionna come out in pieces, and then you will get to learn how to recapture brushes.. ( use fishing line.. )

I guess I would hook the battery up like it was when you got it.. and once you get it started see if it charges.. otherwise I think you will be making a trip to a starter shop for a checkup..

Soundguy

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Bruce (VA)

07-03-2004 12:59:23




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
If the starter bendix is jammed, put the tractor in 4th gear and rock it. The bendix should pop free. As to the problem.....well, it sounds to me like you have the infamous "Bubba 12v conversion". I've never seen a 6v alternator; they all, to my knowledge, put out 12v and you use a 12v battery and a step-down resistor. But, I'm not about to recommend anything to do w/ a 12v conversion; I'm like the local tractor dealer of 30+ years in business who refuses to work on an N w/ a 12v conversion unless he did it himself. Like someone on this Board once said, there are about 12 ways to do it right and a hundred ways to do it wrong. Now that the lecture is over :) describe exactly what is on the tractor and the voltage readings and one of the guys who knows how to trouble shoot these home-grown conversions will be along soon to help out!

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Tymoc

07-03-2004 12:09:08




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
I'm getting a little old I guess. Is it that the tractor won't start but is turning over ok?--or it won't turn over fast enough to start?-- or its not turning over at all. From your post it sounds like it won't turn over and you think the starter is stuck. more info please.



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Rob

07-03-2004 11:11:29




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
You also need to have larger battery cables than those on the 12v vehicle. Your farm/ranch store has 1ga. negative cable and a 2ga. positive ground strap that works really, really good on that tractor. Buy as short as you can get away with. OEM was like 11" and 6" respectively, or something like that; short anyway.
Cables need to be big and clean, all connections shiny, bright, and tight.
You get the ground corrected you might just jump it to start; otherwise you need to find a 6v charger. Good luck.

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Rob

07-03-2004 11:04:53




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
1st, it's 6-volt positive ground and not negative ground. Maybe your battery is in backwards.

2nd, you cannot charge with a 12v charger but, you can jump from a 12v vehicle. Hook-up like this and in this order: You jump from the tractor starter post to the negative of the vehicle and from the vehicle positive to a ground on the tractor. Do not jump to the battery. Make sure it's out of gear because as soon as you go to ground the starter will run. If it's in gear it will run over you. Turn on the key to get it to start.

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RON MORENCY

07-03-2004 10:47:33




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 Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:24:01  
Hello, Follow up to problem. Went through some previous posts. Check gas tank vacuum. OK. Re checked battery with a multi tester and it now shows 2 volts. I tested it OFF of the tractor and it previously tested at 6 volts. Shows the same with the key in the "on" position. Tried to start again hoping for some Godly intervention and there is not a sputter, burp or sound. Stupid question? Can you charge a 6 volt battery with a 12 volt charger? (battery charger is 12 volts only). Or will I end up with a cooked battery? Thanks

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JohnMD

07-03-2004 12:07:56




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 Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:47:33  
Don't ever attempt to charge a 6 volt battery with a 12 volt starter. Most likely the battery will be distroyed and the charger damaged. Jump the tractor with a 12 volt battery as previouly stated and get a new battery when you have time.



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Joe (IN)

07-03-2004 12:06:16




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 Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 10:47:33  
NO! You cannot charge a 6V battery on a 12V charger. Well, you can, but you'd have to have TWO 6V batteries connected to the charger in series. Even then, they'd both have to be in about the same condition or state of charge or one will end up over charged and boiled dry by the time the other one came up. It's not worth messing with. Run to Wally World and come off the $25 for a 6V/12V charger. In all honesty, you don't really have any more business owning a 6V Ford tractor without a 6V charger than you do owning one without an FO-4 shop manual.

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Stick

07-03-2004 12:35:33




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 Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to Joe (IN), 07-03-2004 12:06:16  
I was just gonna say that. Why on earth would anyone with a 6 volt system in a vehicle not own a 6 volt charger? Praying they'll never have problems? That would be about like trying to go on a 10,000 mile road trip on an antique Harley with nothing but a cell phone and a credit card as a tool kit!



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RON MORENCY

07-03-2004 12:34:24




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 Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to Joe (IN), 07-03-2004 12:06:16  
Hello, Follow up. I purchased the tractor two weeks ago and the guy before me put in a new battery. It appears that battery is in wrong. Cable to 6 vt alternator (yes not generator) is on the POS side of battery and ground cable is connected to negative side of battery. How come it started fine on four different occasions for two weeks? Retried to jump start with POS to ground and NEG to starter. NOTHING! I am going out tonight to get a 6 volt charger. I noticed in the shop manual that the two starter bolts go throught the starter and into the housing. Should I take off the starter to test to see if the drive is good? I have a shop manual but I am getting used to it. In all honesty to JOE (IN) if it was not for us "new generation" 9n owners the great tractor that it is would fail to live on and we would all buy those junk Chinese tractors on the market. Ease up Joe and help out a newbee. Thanks

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????! Joe (IN)

07-03-2004 16:05:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 12:34:24  
Uh, at the risk of tweaking your feathers again, I'm kinda thinkin' it may be you that needs to ease up there a little. I WAS trying to help you out. I didn't mean anything derogatory at all. Just stating a fact. A tractor will start with the battery polarity wrong. The starter could care less about polarity or even voltage for that matter. It's going to spin and it's going to spin in the right direction regardless. The ignition will work too, but it will be weak. The real unhappy camper will be your alternator/generator/dynamo or whatever else you've got on there. It will only charge with the correct polarity on the battery. If it is in fact a 6V alternator on there, you're going to need a new one because the regulator is surely cooked. If it's a generator, you might be able to just get away with repolarizing it.

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Stick

07-03-2004 12:45:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to RON MORENCY, 07-03-2004 12:34:24  
Please take my earlier post with the humour that was intended.

Anyway, as was mentioned before, you can jump with a 12V straight to the starter terminal, that will tell you if the drive is stuck or not.

If for some strange reason you do decide to remove the starter, don't take the through bolts right out of the starter, or the brush assembly will come springing apart and it's a bear to put back together. Just unthread them from the block and hold the starter together as you pull it. Stick a couple of nuts on the ends of the thru bolts to hold everything together until you're ready to replace it.

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ron morency

07-03-2004 13:16:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to Stick, 07-03-2004 12:45:10  
Thank you Stick. I accept your gracious humour. I am not going to take the starter off unless I have to. I will try to place it in 3rd gear and rock it back and forth as was earlier suggested. What I cannot understand is how did it start fine for two weeks with the battery connected wrong? I reconnected it the same way it came off because the terminal holes/posts were different sizes and one cables terminals did not fit on the other post (without expanding them when I fixed it)? It is NOT a 12 volt conversion. The battery is a 6 volt NAPA. I was told that the replacement for the generator is a 6 volt alternator (unless the guy was wrong and the replacement generator looks like an alternator)? I am off to buy the battery charger and I will re post after I charge the battery and try it again. Thank you

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Rob

07-03-2004 16:02:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HELP. 9N WON'T START in reply to ron morency, 07-03-2004 13:16:52  
If you have a 6v alternator then it might be negative ground. You have a wire from the alt to the positive post on the battery and that sounds negative ground to me. That wiring isn't going through the ammeter so you don't know if that alt is charging. A fully charged battery might start and run a tractor for many hours and several starts. If the starter doesn't spin the engine you should hear the relay clicking and you aren't. I bet you need to clean up the cables, charge the batt, get the alt working, and route the alt through the ammeter. Get this: battery cable to the starter relay, that relay post to the ammeter, the ammeter to the terminal block terminal with the wire from the alternator, from that terminal block post to the ignition switch and back to one side of the resister on the terminal block, and that will get your ammeter working. Everything in to the battery from the alternator goes through the ammeter and the everything to the coil, via the resister, goes through the ignition switch. Anyway, charge up the battery.
That starter must be hung if you jumped it off 12v and it didn't spin. Rock it. BTW, your batt can read 6v and not have enough charge to spin the starter. I imagine on the alternator you have other posts for excite and sense. That can be done several ways, more than a couple of them that don't work real well, and might be your no-charging alternator problem.

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