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FINALLY - Seat time on my 1952 8N

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Dan

09-12-2004 06:06:06




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I bought this tractor in April. It was in rough, but run-able shape. Ya'll helped me figure out my low compression on #3 cylinder, and when it was discovered the exhaust valve seat was mis-angled when last ground, it was the great advise here that helped me fix it. Also, very good help getting my seriously stuck radius arm pins out to replace the bowed radius arms. Replaced fuel tank, radiator, king pin, tie rod seals, carb, and a host of other parts. I can't thank you all enough.

Finally got a trailer and towed my tractor from my garage in the city to my 42 acres in the country. Hooked up the tractor to my 5' shredder and proceeded to mow the grass and weeds that have gotten away from me while I was getting the tractor ready. Went through the thick stuff with barely a groan! The only time it slowed down was when I hit a big wad of chicken wire I couldn't see. I was mowing over saplings as well with no problems. This was my first time ever to really use a tractor for anything (as I was raised in the city), and even though I am sunburned from mowing all day long, I had an absolute blast listening to my 8N work hard with no complaints.

Thanks again for all your help along the way.

Dan

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MikeT

09-12-2004 09:40:23




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 Re: FINALLY - Seat time on my 1952 8N in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 06:06:06  
Ain't it fun! With me, its a way to re-live my youth when I spent inumerable hours setting on an N pulling a plow, a hay mower, a hay rake, pulling a trailer to feed the cows, ad infinitum.

I have been a very independent person all my life, due in part to those many lonely hours spent on the back of a tractor as a kid. There I developed the attitude that "if I don't do it, it don't get done"! In my day job for 35 years I was many times accused as not being a team player. My answer to that was "get out of my way and let me do my job"!

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Rob

09-12-2004 07:29:40




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 How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 06:06:06  
I'm going to deal with some valves here shortly and I wondered about cutting seats. Did you use that carbide cutter from Goodson on your errant valve seat? That is the smaller and harder seat insert but did you grind any intake seats into the block? I figure to rework both intake and exhaust.
Tell me how that all played out. I'm looking at the Goodson cat and I suppose I can figure which cutter and pilot but what did you learn? I suppose I need two cutters but I don't know and I don't see the pilots. How does that work anyway?
Thanks for any help.

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Hobo,NC

09-14-2004 17:45:18




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 07:29:40  
I got my pilot back, its 1.025 were it fits the block. the pilot stem will need to be the standard size that the cutter uses, I have my email unblocked, iffin ya nee a pnoto email me, i will look in the catalog and see if they have a pilot fer it. it could be made.



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Hobo, NC

09-12-2004 14:06:55




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 07:29:40  
If you have the money then buy the tools, cant have to many tools the pilot for the cutter will be the same size as the guide for the block, that may be hard to find next option will be to get a pilot the same size as the valve stem and use a new guide to line it up. I have these tools but have loaned them out so i can not give ya any mesurements now. If I were hard up fer money i may just lap them in. The seats would have to be in good condition to do it that way. Having to warranty my work I would not think of just lapping'em in, i would pay the 50 or 60 bucks to have it done rite. then i would hand lap'em in to make sure they were rite. helped a member here to build his engine and first thing he told me was he had already had the valves reworked, i told 'em i do my own valve work and I check'em still. Guess what the machine shop had done a bad job and none of the valves would lap in. I reworked all the seats and gott'er rite. the seats are harden and hard to cut. When i do a rebuild on a N the first thing I do when I go to reassyemble the engine is to get the valves reworked, then work on the sleeves etc. Then wash it up and put'er together. Get them valves rite and forget about'em

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Rob

09-12-2004 14:26:12




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Hobo, NC, 09-12-2004 14:06:55  
Yeah, I'm almost there like you say. What kind of cutter you use? I'd spend way more for cutters and pilots than the machine shop would charge for the work.
This is my fiddle-with-and-tinker machine (2N) and I'll probably do it myself just to do it and see how it works out.
There are no intake valve seat inserts. I need to restore the seat width and lap some more but they are real close, just too wide. The exhaust valve seat inserts can be restored also...I think. They are pretty good lapped like they are. I don't remember they are too wide. I could replace those seats. Do replacement inserts need cut or just lapped?

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Rob

09-12-2004 16:00:39




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Hobo, NC, 09-12-2004 15:01:19  
No intake inserts in mine. Don't plan on putting any in either, just wanted to dress up the relief angles some. I don't want intake inserts, too hard to lap.
You have some fairly expensive tools then. I'm not going to spend $800 or $1800 to set up to cut valves. I think maybe Neway has carbide tools I could get new for $200-$250 but that's more than I want to spend.
I've seen a relief cutter tool body for like $86 + the cutter for another $20 but not with the right pilots. The various pilots might come with bushings to fit one body or another but the total price would be getting up there to near $200. If I could get a relief cutter with the right pilots I would be set and then just lap the 45, even the exhaust seat inserts. I got time and elbow grease to spare.

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Hobo, NC

09-12-2004 16:25:19




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 16:00:39  
Looks like the way to go



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Dan

09-12-2004 11:02:37




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 07:29:40  
The carbide cutter was going to be my next route. Actually, all I did was get some medium grit lapping compound and a cordless drill. I would put some compound on the valve seat, install the loose valve into the guide, and put the suction cup on my drill - and go to town. I would stop and wipe off the old compound and put on fresh compound frequently. It took me about a week of doing this for about 2 hours after work. Obviously, this is not the correct way to do this job, but it reduced my gap from about .025 to closed. After it was closed, I would then lap the valve and seat with a normal back and forth finishing grind. I got my compression on that cylinder from 75 to 94 by doing this. I did thin my valve seat some, but did not get into the actual block doing it this way. Make sure you clean up every bit of lapping compound before you put your head back on.

To do it correctly, you need 3 different angles. 1st grind is a 30 degree angle for the throat. Then a 60 degree angle for the top. Then a 45 degree angle for the seat. Goodmans had everything I needed and some real good advise and experience to boot.

Good luck,
Dan

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Rob

09-12-2004 11:23:21




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 11:02:37  
I lap valves seats, just takes time when they are bad, but I need to thin the seat on a couple. The valve is no help with that. What tool did you use, for the 30* and 60*, and how did you do that?



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Dan

09-12-2004 11:58:05




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 11:23:21  
I did not cut new angles, I used my old valve and ground the seat down with lapping compound. But... I did a lot of research when I was contemplating how to fix my problem, and that is where I found the tools and correct angles to use. The carbide cutter you spoke of will cut all of these angles, you just need to buy the different angled cutters and make three seperate cuts on the valve seat - in the order I stated in the above post. Also - A LOT of info was sent to me via email exchanges from Cap-N-ID who is very knowledgable on repairing engines and one heck of a nice guy to boot. Ultimately, I don't know if I would have figured it out without his help.

Good luck,
Dan

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Rob

09-12-2004 12:34:09




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 11:58:05  
Oh, I was thinking you said you had to thin a seat.

I have a couple stones I think I can use to thin the seat some. It might not end up looking as clean as a machine shop but it'll be in spec. The seat has to be centered exactly on the valve but there must be a little play on center for the relief angles and I'll need some I bet. The 45* seats are pretty good, compression in spec, and it runs ok but I want to thin those seats some so it will last longer and less likely to burn the valves. They are right at or just wider than spec as it is. They could stand a bit more lapping but I ran up against the width spec so I stopped.

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MikeT

09-12-2004 10:01:02




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 Re: How did the valve grinding go? in reply to Rob, 09-12-2004 07:29:40  
Don't people still use valve grinding compound and grind them in-place? That might not work though I guess if the angle is wrong.



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hvw

09-12-2004 06:45:11




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 Re: FINALLY - Seat time on my 1952 8N in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 06:06:06  
Congrats Dan! I hope to be able to post a similar message before winter. I started at the front and am at the rear axle now so there's not a whole lot left to repair. I'm working at it as time allows plus I'm just plain slow.



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The Yank

09-12-2004 06:43:08




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 Re: FINALLY - Seat time on my 1952 8N in reply to Dan, 09-12-2004 06:06:06  
Life is good!



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