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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Dell we need a mind reader

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rbell

09-17-2004 07:30:37




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Sorry but your post makes no sense.
You say the tractor starts and runs
You say you have no oil pressure (not an ignition related issue)
You say moving the spark advance makes no difference
You say tractor is dead (you mean it does not start?)
Start over and explain the problem does the tractor start/ yes/no
Can you increase the RPMs /yes/no
Will the tractor pull the bush hog /yes/no
Etc

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Dale Blackburn

09-17-2004 08:52:32




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to rbell, 09-17-2004 07:30:37  
Apparantly you didn"t read the post. I said the original pertronix burned out and was replaced. With the second unit I said the tractor starts and runs but has no power, will not gain RPM, moving spark advance has no effect, and the oil pressure guage does not move. I said all that in the first post, I thought.
LDB



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uh . . . Dell (WA)

09-17-2004 09:12:25




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 08:52:32  
Dale..... ....I know yer frustrated, but your 1st description of your problems didn't addequately explain and so further explanations were requested. But yet, your 2nd response still didn't answer some of the basic troubling ambiguous statements of facts..... ....respectfully, Dell the flunking mindreader



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Dell (WA)

09-17-2004 08:42:54




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to rbell, 09-17-2004 07:30:37  
Lynn..... ...I flunked mindreading, just ask my ex-wife..... ....I've never had a frontmount Petronix conversion in my hands but here goes..... ...

I've seen pictures and except for the "braggin' rights" I wouldn't waste my time and money converting to any electronic ignition for the frontmount distributor, and I'm an retired electronics engineer and experienced tinkerer and have built and installed numerious WORKING electronic ignitions.

You don't say, but NONE of the frontmount Petronix conversions work well on 6 volts; and your phrase "running it without any resistor" implies this is installation is still a 6 volt battery system. Yes or no?

You say you can adjust the timing and it makes no difference. Iff'n yer talking about the sliding side-of-body timing screw, it may NOT effect the way the Petronix sensor relates to the magductor mounted on the former points cam and therefore WON'T adjust the timing. Hard telling, your there, I'm here.

As far as I know, the BASIC frontmount timing is STILL 1/4" as set on your kitchen table by measureing the tang-offset gap with relation to the small mounting hole. Make certain you use the wide side of the tang shaft to line up to the small mounting hole.

There is NO RELATIONSHIP between oilpressure and ignition EXCEPT an engine that doesn't run has NO OIL pressure. You say your engine runs and has no oilpressure. Better find out why. Disconnect any oilpressure line at the block outlet "T" and start the engine (iff'n you can) iff'n it don't start to pee all overyou, turner off. Iff'n it does pee, then you probably have a bad oilpressure gauge, $10 cheap. Iff'n it don't pee, you might have lost your oilpump prime, but I'd bet on the oilgauge first..... ....Dell

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Dale Blackburn

09-17-2004 09:55:47




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dell (WA), 09-17-2004 08:42:54  
I thought I said this tractor had been converted to 12v. I also said the tractor was operated without a resistor which burned up the 1st petronix unit. So for the record, NO, it is NOT now a 6v system. The side of body spark advance is still supposed to effect the engine the same as before, yet it does not. As to the oil pressure it always had good pressure but the engine RPM had to increase before it would kick the guage up. This engine has been recently overhauled and it has new plugs, plug wires, and as I said, this 2nd petronix ignition system. As far as timing, cam gear, crank gear setting, that has not been messed with and the cam gear driving the distributor is turning fine.
Anyway, thanks for your input. I have never had any experience with Ford products before and altho I really like this little tractor I don't have much patience with its breakdowns. Right now I HATE IT !!!!!
LDB

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Dell (WA)

09-17-2004 10:35:58




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 09:55:47  
Lynn..... ...you should know by now that you HAVE TO take the 2-bolt frontmounted distributor OFF to time the distributor per the pictures. (as described, 1/4") The side-timing screw is only good for about 5 deg of change (retard) and the internal centrifical advance is good for about 25 deg advance. And UNFORTUNATELY there is NO EXTERNAL TIMING MARKS for your frontmount distributor so ya gotta DO IT LIKE THE BOOK PICTURES.

Having to kick the engine rpm up before the gauge would register could be EATHER oilgauge ($10 cheap) or loosing prime on your oilpump pickup tube $$$..... ....respectfully, Dell

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Dale Blackburn

09-17-2004 14:23:28




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dell (WA), 09-17-2004 10:35:58  
Dell;
The only manual I have is a copy of Ford's original service mamual and it is for a 9n 2n. Mine has a 8N engine and whether it is the same as you described Iv'e no idea. Anyway I will figure it out some way some time. Also some 'mechanics' say it is impossible to get it out of time and some say it is. Every one seems to be an 'expert' excepy me and I admit I never was a Ford person. Don't think I missed much either. BUT, I am stuck with this problem for the time being
Be Well
LDB

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Dale Blackburn

09-17-2004 20:30:26




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 14:23:28  
WOW, I am impressed mind reader. The only problem I see is my distributor does not have points. The Hall Effect switch picks up the magnets as they pass by and I am in the dark as to how to turn the ring on the shaft and no'one as yet has answered that for me. I have been told it can't be out of time. In fact every question has been answered except what I need to know. The plate only moves a small amount of distance and I think I need to move it more than I would be able to with the spark advance.
I don't want to overtax your brain so perhaps you should just ignore any more answers
Respectfully
Oklahoma
But I saved your magnificent drawing for future reference when I go back to a point system
Be Well

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

09-18-2004 00:36:20




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 20:30:26  
Dale..... ...you're the one that made the diagnosis that your frontmount distributor needed timing and you asked HOW? Iff'n pictures and verbal explainations don't satify you, then suggest you COMPLAIN to PETRONIX 'cuz they're the ones that modified the magnitor to fitt the frontmount distributor. Iff'n they do a lousy job "zero'ing" the magnets on the cam with respect to the off-set tang, then you'll NEVER get the timing right.

And yes, I understand the relationship between the magnitor and the points plate mounted Hall-Effect detectors. I got my Electronic Engr Degree in 1958 and have 40 active years of electronic experience and many years automotive engine tune-up experience.

As I originally said, I wouldn't waste my time on an electronics ignition coversion mounted inside the frontmount distributor body. Petronix has a good hot-rod reputation for their OTHER interior mounted ignition conversions, but so far their frontmount conversions leave me un-impressed..... ..... respectfully, Dell

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Dale Blackburn

09-19-2004 09:39:17




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 09-18-2004 00:36:20  
This is a reply to a response on that distributor problem. As you may gain some more knowledge I have sent you a copy of this reply.
The distributor WAS seriously out of time. AND, it can be timed!!! Revise your thinking because you do not quite know it all yet. It may be to much 'LATTE'I assume Del-WA is from Washington state. I'm sure you meant well, just approach these problems with a bit more thought. No hard fellings??
Dale Reply to Mike from Indiana


Hello Mike;
Was good to hear from Indiana. I lived there 60 years. Spent 30 of those at Delco Electronics in Kokomo. I do not know where Milton is however.
I appreciate your suggestions. Many people weighed in on the problem however nobody nailed it so far. Believe me I heard it all and I'm sure most of the responders meant well.
I have to say tho I have learned to be leery of the 'EXPERTS' LOL. Really some guys are so smart they are brain dead, and a lot of them pay no attention to what ya tell them but launch off on to all sort of wild speculation.
Anyway, I just came in and cleaned up. Man poor Freddie suffered out there in tall Burmuda grass and bugs by the zillion. I bet the distributor cap is full of them. It was the last time I mowed 7 or 8 hrs with points. I had to go back to a borrowed Distributor to get mowing done, but it was a struggle. It missed pretty bad and staggered around plus I blew an exhaust gasket to the process so Freddie sounds more like a John Deere than a Ford. Anyway I got done and for the record, I love the electronic ignition even if I couldn't use it this time. I had plenty of spark but it is useless unless it gets there when it should, right??
I finally determined it was so out of time. It was firing when the piston was on the way down. Wouldn't get enough RPM to jump up the oil pressure. When I put on the point dist. it took off big time but power is down considerably. Anyway, this too shall be corrected somehow, sometime, or at least I think it will. I know I am wore out. I could change a distributor on a 9N in my sleep and may do that.
Also my old hands sure took a beating but I learned some things, hahah even if it was the hard way. And I got all 10 acres mowed Also for your INFO the spark advance did nothing to correct it because it was too far out.
Thanks again for your help. I will keep your address and your offer of the point plate was mighty decent.
Be in good health and stay away from Dist. problems they can make you loose your religion. hahaha

L D Blackburn
Bokoshe, OK

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Dell (WA)

09-17-2004 19:20:28




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 14:23:28  
Dale..... ....the 1-terminal squarecan ignition coil 4-nipple crabcap frontmounted distributor is the SAME for 9N, 2N, early 8N's (mid 1950 when 8N's changed to a roundcan 5-nipple sidemount distributor) so your 2N manual distributor instructions (if any) for timing the frontmount distributor STILL APPLIES.

And for your amazement and edification, I have also added a how-to-do-it frontmount timing picture link. Now quit making excuses and do it right..... ...respectfully, Dell

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Adam Paul

09-17-2004 10:25:35




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 09:55:47  
Dale, you never up until this point mentioned that your now 12 volt. I know you were running without a resistor and you're frustrated!!! We are here to help. Let me ask a couple of things. What does the spark look like? Is it strong? If yes, check the timing adjust on the petronix. If weak, you've got low voltage / to much resistance. Do you have your original (pionts, coil, etc.) parts, and the means to put back together? When you got the tractor, was it already 12 volts, was it still using a 6 volt coil (in that 12v system)??? Do you know about the ballest resistor behind the dash? Is that in or out of the system???
While we all have been frutrated at times at our tractors, we surely do our best to not be cranky with the ones that help us...
Adam

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bj/8n/mt

09-17-2004 10:18:16




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 Re: Dell we need a mind reader in reply to Dale Blackburn, 09-17-2004 09:55:47  
Don't know about Petronix ignition on front mount n series and don't care to. On the other hand, the symptoms you describe are consistent with crossed plug wires. Since you seem to have had them off more than once that is the first thing I would check. Check your firing order--1243 ccw.

Your mileage may vary



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