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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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idle speed

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gahorn

10-29-2004 10:33:15




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Some folks SWEAR the idle MUST be at/near 400 rpm. I respectfully disagree. A low idle isn't important, in my opinion. I"d recommend the idle be as low as it will run smoothly with a good carb and tuneup (and will keep oil pressure at least 5 lbs.)
A very slow idle will starve upper cylinders/lower pistons for oil splash off the crankshaft ...which in turn will starve the piston pin for lubrication...after only a few minutes of idling. It can also lead to main/rod bearing scuffing if they are only slightly worn. Higher idle does nothing to harm the engine. The increased lubrication far outweighs the mileage travelled by the rings.

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B. Jones

10-29-2004 18:41:47




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 Re: idle speed in reply to gahorn, 10-29-2004 10:33:15  
I bought one of those digital tachs and it shows that my idle speed is right at 600rpm. It sounds good and I even have a neutral charge there. I have the old 3 brush generator with a Fun Projects voltage regulator. My tractor will idle fine at 400 but then I show 3 or4 amps of discharge. The tractor just seems happier at that speed, so I leave it there. I would think it would oil better also at the higher speed. I also have my top end rpm set at 1800rpm with no load. It sounds better there than the 2200 that is to be used only with a belt load anyway. I don't even have my belt pulley anymore, so I don't feel the need to use 2200 rpm. I just thought I would let you know how I have my rpm's set. Barrett Jones

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Dell (WA)

10-29-2004 20:34:02




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 Re: idle speed in reply to B. Jones, 10-29-2004 18:41:47  
Barrett..... ....we've all been spoiled by 12 volt alternator systems that charge at "idle". (but modern cars idle at about 800rpms for smog purposes) It is NO SURPRIZE that your 11 amp 1-terminal 3rd brush 6 volt generator doesn't charge at 400 rpm idle. Infact your "Fun Projects" voltage regulator is operating quite correctly. You should see about -3 amps of ignition current at idle, because your generator isn't charging.

Direct Current (DC) generators have "mechanical limits" that restrict their operational rpm charging range; so you could have a dc generator pulley sized so it charges at idle but would probably cut the maximum engine rpms in 1/2. Thats the trade-off. Generator charge at idle and 30mph down the highway ...or... no charge at idle and 60mph down the highway.

You can set your carb idle rpm and governor max rpm range to what ever pleases you. Ford just specifies 400 rpm idle and 2200 MAX governed engine operating range. The reason for 400 rpms is so your centrifical ignition advance is RETARDED for eazier starting. Ignition advance is required for max power.

That is why you have automatic ignition advance timing by the centrifical advance mechanism under your points plate. By restricting your governor to 1800 max rpms you actually reduce your governors ablility to handle engine power loads. Iff'n you don't want your engine to operate over 1800 rpms, just don't open your dash throttle so wide. Simple, eh?..... ..... Dell

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gahorn

10-31-2004 10:22:57




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 Re: idle speed in reply to Dell (WA), 10-29-2004 20:34:02  
It might seem I'm trying to "start" sumpin' with you Dell, ...but I'm not. I respect your knowledge immensely...
But you're mistaken about a couple things:
You wrote: "The reason for 400 rpms is so your centrifical ignition advance is RETARDED for eazier starting." Starting is from a STANDSTILL and the set idle speed of the engine is of no consequence at that moment. Further, the ignition advance is a function of distributor counterweights and spring tensions and have nothing to do with carburetion. Ignition advance is entirely dependent upon rpm....and for starting cares not whether or not, once running the idle speed will be in an rpm range calling for advanced timing. (And in any case, no significant advance occurs on these engines until 800-1200 rpm. The max advance does not occur until over 2000 rpm. As a comparison, typical automotive engines have starting timing around 10-degrees BTDC. The 9/2Ns have zero, while the later 8N's have 4-degrees BTDC. All N-engines have less than 10-degrees advance until approx. 1200 rpm. So, from the standpoint of starting ignition timing, an insistence on idle rpm of 400 is moot.)

Later, you wrote: "That is why you have automatic ignition advance timing by the centrifical advance mechanism under your points plate. By restricting your governor to 1800 max rpms you actually reduce your governors ablility to handle engine power loads."
In actuality, the governor detects a lower-than-called for trottle-VS-rpm condition, and opens the carburetor throttle-plate wider whenever the underspeed condition is detected (and relaxes the carb throttle plate tensions when on-speed or overspeed is detected.) The fact that the maximum available speed is set for only 1800 rpm will not disadvantage the operation. If the throttle lever is at it's maximum deflection (normally calling for 1800 rpm) and the engine drops below that speed, then the governor will call for a more open carb throttle plate, and the engine will accelerate normally. The fact that no more than 1800 rpm is allowed by the governor will not diminish that action.
You are correct of course, that physically limiting the gov. action to only 1800 was unnecessary if the throttle lever movement had simply been manually limited by the operator. But the owner'sr decision to adjust his governor so as to limit his engine to a maximum of 1800 rpm in all cases does not reduce his governor's ability to act responsively at all. It merely causes the gov. to relax it's acceleration demands at any engine speed above 1800. In effect, it only resets the "overspeed" condition to 1800 rather than 2200. No loss of "governors ablility to handle engine power loads" or responsiveness occurs.

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Dell (WA)

10-29-2004 11:29:40




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 Re: idle speed in reply to gahorn, 10-29-2004 10:33:15  
Hornie..... ...My 8N Ford Owners manual and my I&T FO-4 manual BOTH specify 400 rpm idle speed. And the idle circuits of the M/S carb don't work much over 500 rpms and neather does the MAINJET circuit. You need to understand carb theory. I understand your concern about low oilpressure from low engine rpms, but I'm certain that FORD took that into account when they designed the N-ENGINE..... ...respectfully, Dell

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gahorn

10-29-2004 19:09:20




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 Re: idle speed in reply to Dell (WA), 10-29-2004 11:29:40  
Dell, ...respectfully... What do you imagine "carb theory" has to do with lubrication concerns? I believe the answer is ... "nada". If the engine has a very nice idle at 400 rpms....but the oil pressure is... well..."nada" ...then it darn sure shouldn't be allowed to idle there very long. The point I was making had little to do with carb health (which is just about ALL that particular Ford's specification was concerned with!) Ford's desire to see a carb capable of idling at 400 rpm is a very nice testimonial about the carb. But it has little to do with the operating health of a 60 or 70 year old engine with low oil pressure. Even an engine with high oil pressure will eventually suffer from long periods of low idle due to lessened lubrication. (And just what task are we supposedly accomplishing at idle, anyway?) Quote, straight from the 1946 Continental Motors Operators manual (a mfr of many small industrial/agricultural 4 and 6 cyl engines almost identical to the Ford engine): "Your engine is set to idle well below 600 rpm, but at engine speeds below 600 rpm satisfactory piston lubrication cannot be maintained. Therefore, it is recommended that the engine not be allowed to operate below 600 rpm for prolonged intervals."

I just endorse the commentary as well, ...not looking for argument.

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gahorn

10-29-2004 19:20:16




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 Re: idle speed in reply to gahorn, 10-29-2004 19:09:20  
P.S.--I understand carb "theory" a little. I've rebuilt Marvel carbs for over 30 years as an aircraft mechanic and have worked with the only flow-bench in the Houston area still certified by Facet (the successor to Marvel.) But I have to admit I'm curious about something: If the idle circuit doesn't work well "much over 500 rpm, and neither does the mainjet"... I wonder what it is that keeps it running between 500 and say, a thousand? ;Þ

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STUMP PULLER (TX)

10-29-2004 10:38:30




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 Re: idle speed in reply to gahorn, 10-29-2004 10:33:15  
third party image

IF YOUR N IS RUNNING GOOD YOU CAN IDLE AT 400. DOESNT MEAN YOU HAVE TO RUN IT THERE. I HARDLY EVER LET MY N IDLE. Link

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Dan

10-29-2004 11:48:05




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 Re: idle speed in reply to STUMP PULLER (TX), 10-29-2004 10:38:30  
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Here you go Stump:



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STUMP PULLER (TX)

10-29-2004 12:30:30




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 Re: idle speed in reply to Dan, 10-29-2004 11:48:05  
THANKS-I DONT KNOW WHY IT DIDNT WORK FOR ME.



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Russ in SoCal

10-31-2004 00:02:25




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 Snowing too hard? in reply to STUMP PULLER (TX), 10-29-2004 12:30:30  



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STUMP PULLER (TX)

10-31-2004 18:25:36




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 Re: Snowing too hard? in reply to Russ in SoCal, 10-31-2004 00:02:25  
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TRYING PIC

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STUMP PULLER (TX)

10-31-2004 18:27:09




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 Re: Snowing too hard? in reply to STUMP PULLER (TX), 10-31-2004 18:25:36  
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TEST PIC



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