Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

6 volt battery polarity reversal

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
John IL

12-06-2004 06:41:02




Report to Moderator

Hey Fellas,
I posted yesterday about strange ammeter readings with the new battery in my '51 8N. It turns out that the polarity on my old battery was reveresed. Bob (from yesterday's post) suggested that the polarity can be reversed if you connect a charger backwards when the battery is completely dead. What is the correct way to connect a charger to a 6V positive ground system? Do you connect the charger's + to the battery's + side or the battery's - side? Thanks.

John

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
ZANE

12-06-2004 18:06:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to John IL, 12-06-2004 06:41:02  
A lead acid battery can most positively be charged backwards. It must be completely discharged in order for a battery charger to be connected to it without it making a big fuss with sparks but it can most certainly be done.

I have done it back when I was younger and not paying much attention to what I was doing or not really knowing what I was doing.

Zane



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
valhallareject

12-06-2004 09:58:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to John IL, 12-06-2004 06:41:02  
Now I'm not 100% certain about this.....but I think the polarity of a wet cell battery is determined by the chemical process that occurs between the electolyte and the two dissimiliar metals that make up the two plates. Electrons, those tiny invisible electronic "do-gooders", tend to collect on the negative post giving it a significantly "more negative" disposition then the electron evacuated positive post thus creating the condition we call + and -. I'm not real sure this process can be reversed....at least not in a normal everyday ordinary lead calcium wet cell. Maybe in a nickle cadmium or lithium ion or zinc oxide battery they can....but me stinks a well cell is immune to cell reversal. Worst case would be electrolyte with a "0" specific gravity; ie., pure water...which conducts zero electrons...which makes it effectively an insulator....which puts both posts at effectively a "zero" potential. Circuit open....nada current flow. But no polarity reversal. As for removal of the battery from the system for recharge...there is such a thing as float charging.....and another known as equalize charging. Inside the black case of the "battery" there are three individual and isolated cells for a 6v battery and six for a 12v battery. What we tend to do for simplicity sake is look at the overall quality of the battery....not the individual quality of each cell. Sumptimes cells become imbalanced...their individual impedence changes for whatever reason and their individual perfomances vary greatly. By charging such a battery with a specific elevated voltage I can intimidate these lower performing cells to act more like their well behaved neighbors and thus extend the life of the battery. However...sometimes the equipment attached to the battery cannot tolerate this elevated voltage..and in these cases the battery must be removed from service...for...uh..well...servicing! Absorbed Glass Mat batteries and gelled electrolytes are particularly bad about this since they do not have free flowing electrolyte to assist in the process. At any rate....my suggestion is....if you have a battery which no longer matches the polarity markings indicated on the case....recycle that puppy and get ya one you can count on when the waters up to the red belly and rising!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

12-06-2004 11:42:02




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to valhallareject, 12-06-2004 09:58:05  
Valahalla,

I don't know anything about lead-acid battery theory, but I can tell you from practical experience that a dead lead-acid battery CAN be charged so the actual polarity is opposite the post markings.

I have seen this a number of times.

The first time was when I was young, in the late 60's. My Uncle had a 1964 Ford car with a GENERATOR, with a solid state radio.

The radio quit working, and after a year or so he got a wrecking yard radio, which didn't work in the car, either, but had worked at the wrecking yard. About that time, I was beginning to work with electronics, and one way or the other, I figured out that the battery was charged backwards, and was frying the radios. We left the lights on untill the battery was dead, and recharged it with the correct polarity, polarized the generator, and installed another radio, and all was well.

The car was kept in a dark carshed, and for one reason or another, the battery had been run down, and he apparently mis-connected the battery charger, starting the radio problems!

Another incident was a John Deere combine. The owner had taken the battery off for the winter, and stored it inside. The next summer, he charged it up, and carried it out to the Quonset, and was connecting the cables, and had a big spark. He called me, thinking he had a short in the wiring.

It turned out he had charged THAT battery backwards, and the reversed polarity was causing the spark at the battery cable connection of the alternator-equipped machine. We hooked a spare headlight to the battery and drained it, recharged it correctly, and all was well. He was lucky in that he had just momentarily touched the battery cable to the post, and noticed the spark. He did not even "kill" his alternator.

I have seen a couple of more "reverse-charged" incidents since then, so I can tell you that, theory aside, this can and does happen.

He may as well run down his battery, and charge it correctly, and then have it load tested. The ones I have dealt with were non the worse for the experience! If the battery is any good, it will charge correctly just fine.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
valhallareject

12-06-2004 15:54:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to Bob, 12-06-2004 11:42:02  
Perhaps a properly worded document should read that a wet cell SHOULD NOT be discharged to the point of reversing voltage....not only from a product reliablility standpoint but also from a personal safety perspective. Over discharge of a battery creates three potential points of failure....its creates hard crystallized sulfate, it loosens the active material in the battery plates, and it causes plate buckling.

Hard sulfate cannot be converted back to lead dioxide by any form of charge cycle....proper polarity or level.....period. Once formed it is there to stay and can only be removed through remanufacturing processes. Eventually hard sulfation will shed from the plate usually taking active material with it leaving less material available for the electrochemical process that creates the electricity ultimately reducing the ampacity of the cell.

Once hard sulfation occurs less and less lead sulfate is converted back to active material through recharging. This causes the lead dioxide material to produce an abnormal paste which further loosens the remaining good active material in the plate further reducing the cells ampacity.

Finally, physical buckling of the plates occurs which breaks any remaining good plate material out of its grid. Bottom line is....ok...yes, I suppose a battery can discharge to the point of reversing its potential.....but it will never, ever be the same again.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

12-06-2004 11:13:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to valhallareject, 12-06-2004 09:58:05  
Water will self ionize. H+ and oh- floating around. One of the reasons why electrolysis works when you pass a current thru water via electrodes... I would deffinately not classify water as an insulator in any sense of the word. At best.. pure water with few ions would be a poor conductor... Big difference between a poor conductor and an insulator. Also.. real hard to keep pure water pure. Not only does it self ionize.. just about any metal it comes into contact with is going to effect it... salts and metals in soloution.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve (Magnolia, TX)

12-06-2004 06:47:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to John IL, 12-06-2004 06:41:02  
A battery is a battery. You should always connect + to + and - to -, charger to battery.

BTW... I'd also disconnect the battery from the charging system prior to charging it....

HTH
Steve



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John IL

12-06-2004 06:49:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to Steve (Magnolia, TX), 12-06-2004 06:47:41  
Steve,
Thanks for the polarity clarification. Just one question. Why disconnect the battery before charging? Will a charger damage the generator and/or VR?

John



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve (Magnolia, TX)

12-06-2004 07:02:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to John IL, 12-06-2004 06:49:51  
I don't know as it would do any damage to any of the electrical circuitry (as long as the key is in the 'off' position), but, in my opinion, there's no sense in adding the extra load (as minimal as it may be) to the battery charger.

Again, in my case, I always remove the battery from the tractor and vent the fill holes, that way if the battery overcharges and boils over, I've not got acid running all over my tractor...


HTH
Steve

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

12-06-2004 07:00:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: 6 volt battery polarity reversal in reply to John IL, 12-06-2004 06:49:51  
Not if everything is hooked up correctly, and working. That said.. I always at least pull the 'hot' cable from the battery if I am charging it in the tractor. Especially in your case.. where your charging system has been thru some uh.. weird changes. Once you get the battery charged back to correct polarities.. that is.. positive on the red and(+) side.. and negative on the black and (-) side. then install it whichever ground polarity you are going to use it connected to the chassie, and then polarize your genny/regulator with the tractor not running. ( for an a-circuit genny on an 8n.. that is jumper bat and arm terminals momentarilly.)

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy