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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Cooking a Coil

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Ramrod

01-09-2005 07:30:42




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I've been pondering on the whole 'cooking a coil' issue, and have a few questions about this concept. Let's consider that a tractor runs all day, working in the heat. The primary winding of the coil (large wire; low voltage; high current; long winding) is engerized all of the time, except when it is firing, and then the secondary (small wire; high voltage; low current; VERY long winding) is engerized by the collapsing magnetic field. This can go on continuosly, without damaging the coil.

So, my question is, why would leaving the key on until the battery goes dead or the points fry damage the coil? Logically, it doesn't seem to be any worse than a coil's normal day at work, possibly better due to the shorter duration of the event.

Another question is, why can't we do an effective test on a coil with a ohm meter? The primary winding can be read as a low resistance across the + and - terminals, and the large winding can be read as a higher resistance across the - and the coil-to-distributor wire connection terminals. If the coil is fried, one of these windings will be open.

Ramrod

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The Yank

01-09-2005 13:01:51




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 Another Coil Ponder in reply to Ramrod, 01-09-2005 07:30:42  
Here's another one to ponder! I work at a company that makes sensors. Most of the designs are just a coil of wire wound around a magnet.

When we setup production to do a new coil design we have to validate how it is made. Typically we put a couple of hundred coils in a machine that cycles from -40C to +150C. Thermal shock stress test.

The mechanical moving of the coil guts when going hot and cold can cause insulation to break down or wires to break. We usually test for 150 cycles. Poor designs usually show up with failures in the first 8 to 10 cycles.

If ya don't ever leave the key on why would a coil ever fail? Poor design?

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Rob N VA

01-09-2005 19:26:11




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 Re: Another Coil Ponder in reply to The Yank, 01-09-2005 13:01:51  
Age? More than 150 cycles? just guessing, not trying to be a smart-@ss



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STUMP PULLER (TX)

01-09-2005 10:05:31




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to Ramrod, 01-09-2005 07:30:42  
THE DWELL ON AN N IS TYPICALLY 53.5 DEGREES. OUT OF THE TOTAL 90 DEGREES THIS MEANS YOUR POINTS ARE CLOSED ABOUT 59 % OF THE TIME. SO IF THE WATTS DISSIPATED FOR EXAMPLE IS 32 WATTS FOR THE POINTS CLOSED 100% OF THE TIME. THE WATTS DISSIPATED WHILE RUNNING WOULD BE ABOUT 19 WATTS. CONSIDERABLY LESS POWER THAN WHEN YOU LEAVE THE KEY ON. HAVE FUN



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The Yank

01-09-2005 12:37:16




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to STUMP PULLER (TX), 01-09-2005 10:05:31  
I knew the power was less than when 100% on but I didn't realize it was that much less! Wow. I learn! Thanks.



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Bob

01-09-2005 11:06:30




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to STUMP PULLER (TX), 01-09-2005 10:05:31  
According the the I&T FO-4, front-mount point dwell is 35-38 degrees. That would make average RUNNING ignition current only about 40.5% of stopped-with-the-points-closed current.

No wonder things heat up so much when stopped, key on, points closed!



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STUMP PULLER (TX)

01-09-2005 11:28:16




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to Bob, 01-09-2005 11:06:30  
FORD DIDNT FOLLOW THE CONVENTIONS OF STATING DWELL BACK WHEN. THE DWELL IS USUALLY SPECIFIED AS THE TIME THE POINTS ARE CLOSED. FORDS MANUAL STATES THE DWELL AS THE TIME POINTS ARE OPEN. IF YOU CONVERT THE 35 DEG OR WHATEVER TO THE INVERSE YOU GET THE TRUE 52-55 DEG DWELL. MOST TRACTOR GUYS DONT CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT DWELL-BUT IT IS THE MOST ACCURATE WAY TO SET YOUR POINTS, AND IT IS A GOOD WAY TO CHECK YOUR POINTS IN OPERATION. HAVE FUN

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The Yank

01-09-2005 08:13:52




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to Ramrod, 01-09-2005 07:30:42  
Some comments about your comments!!!
When running, the coil is conducting current only a percentage of the time. Depends on the duty cycle, on-off, on-off, etc. When you leave the key on with the points in the right position, the coil is drawing current 100% of the time. Heat builds up.

You can test a coil if it is open or shorted with a good meter. (Accurate meter) What you can not test for is an intermittent coil.

When they make coils they start with copper wire that has a very thin coating of insulation on it. They wind a bunch of turns on some type of mandrel, make the primary, then make the secondary. When they put these two coils inside some kind of case they fill the case with another type insulated filler. Dell calls it tar! Ha.
In any event, if a coil has overheated, the thin insulation around the wire can break down or the tar can break down. When the coild gets up to operating temperature, everything swells with heat. When everything gets warm, moves around, wires can touch each other where the insulation has broken down. When things cool down, wires can move, not touch anymore and everything is fine. That creates an intermittent short. Tractor works fine until the coil gets to operating temperature, shorts some of the coils of wire, sparkies drop off, tractor no worky. Coil cools down, short goes away, tractor works fine, for awhile.

Got long winded. Sorry.

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Ramrod

01-09-2005 09:46:52




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to The Yank, 01-09-2005 08:13:52  
You're correct about the coil only conducting when the points are closed (on the primary), but the points are closed most of the time, and when they're open, the secondary is conducting, so the coil is always working and making heat while the engine is running. Your comments about insulation breakdown are well noted, but I think that is more of an age issue exagerated and exposed by heat in the form of a weak spark. I wonder if there are many instances of a new coil being fried by leaving the key on?

Ramrod

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Dell (WA)

01-09-2005 10:28:18




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 Re: Cooking a Coil in reply to Ramrod, 01-09-2005 09:46:52  
Ramrod..... ....doesn't take much "excess" temperature to melt the insulative tar and short out the primary turns. And it doesn't take many shorted primary turns to reduce the frontmount's coils magnetic field that colapses when the points open to induce the high voltage in the secondary winding to create the necessary "hot" sparkies to fire-off the engine.

Unfortunately, unless you have specialized lab-grade ohmmeter (called a wheatstone bridge), you can NOT measure the reduced resistance effect of one or two turns being shorted out ...but... you can eazily observe the effect in the loss of snappy blue-snott sparkies. The primary winding in the squarecan N-Coil is only about 30 turns and total primary resistance is only about 1-ohm..... .....Dell, former Boeing Cal Lab engr

And yes, even new squarecan frontmount coils will fry from accidently leaving the ignition switch ON long enuff.

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Russ in SoCal

01-09-2005 09:38:46




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 And you'll have. . . . in reply to The Yank, 01-09-2005 08:13:52  
. . . a short between primary and secondary.
Russ



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