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O.T. Footing/Foundation

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Sal8N

02-09-2005 09:05:06

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When it comes to putting in footings in less than perfect soil is the idea of making the footings wider a reasonable solution?...most likely the answer begins with "depends"

Have a situation where part of the area where the footing is to go seems soft even after over digging. Kind of stopped things. Looking around for a qualfied person to come out and tell us what our options are...if any.

Since this is not my specialty I thought I would try and tap the knowledge here on the board.

Thanks.

-Sal

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DUCK

02-10-2005 17:15:40

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

I deal with large multi-million dollar construction projects of which a very critical part is the foundation supporting the structures and the soils they are to be bearing on. I suggest you spend a few dollars and hire a State licensed Professional Soils engineer or a licensed P.E. who is able to evaluate the soils conditions you have as well as issue a report and design for your specific conditions. The advantage to you is a Licensed P.E. will have his license on the line if he draws and stamps the design based on his professional analysis of your soils. They don't take this lightly and should carry E.& O insurance which gives you a legal line of recourse if you should need it. It may seem like overkill until you have a foundation or structural failure based on the shade tree local dirt expert or building inspector.

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OH Boy

02-10-2005 06:17:54

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

You need a qualified engineers analysis of your soil condition. They will also have to look at the load that your foundation will bear. Then they can design an appropriate foundation/footing for the conditions. I would think your building inspectors could be very helpful with this too and they would undoubtedly know who the local engineers are who specialize in this sort of thing.

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Barnstormer

02-10-2005 04:40:54

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

A friend is building a log house by a private lake. The ground around it is clay over peat. He had to pre-load the full footprint with 1,000,000 pounds of sand and leave it for 6 months to compact the area. Then, after removing the sand, he formed a floating slab. The house is up and in the finishing stages. This has been a 7 year project for him. I've helped from time to time hauling 50 foot logs loaded with my 8N, hauling lumber from a mill about 100 miles away and doing some idea tosses and impromptu inspections to keep him on his toes. grin (he is 6' 8" tall)

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Barry8n

02-09-2005 19:01:29

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

try this site for help. There are other organizations dealing with concrete and construction
http://www.concrete.net/general/home.asp

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Barry8N

02-09-2005 18:55:15

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

Most of the comments are good. Contact a local engineering firm in your area and see what they usually do. Often they will give free advice if single question.
You can replace the fill as recommended. You can run concrete pilings deep enough to bedrock or solid earth, this is common.
You can try a floating foundation and floor but I wouldn't.
What ever you do, make sure footings are below the frost line in your area!!! the freeze/thaw cycle is the most damaging factor in foundations.

One last thing about the left over cement. It is often of poor quality after being hauled all day and water added. the integrity and strength are compromised so be careful of using it. Cheaper up front may well come back to bite you in the end.

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csimba

02-09-2005 17:26:35

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

I have more experience in footers than I do with my 9N - probably will change with time.
Down in Oklahoma all the red clay muck needs a "monolithic slab" that is a footer/slab all poured together. The best fill I've used is concrete scrap - the junk hosed out of concrete trucks. Good and cheap, packs better than either 3/4 clean or "baserock". Maybe spend some extra time and effort doing a really thorough compacting job.
You've got a bigger frost factor than in my area so make sure the footer goes that deep - and go with a 24" wide footer, and rest easily.

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Upper Peninsula,Mi

02-09-2005 15:51:46

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

Sal8N. First, I'm not an engineer but do have some experience in this area. You say soft. Is it also wet or damp? Building on dry sand is one thing, but building on wet material is another, even more so if your in an area that has frost. I would over engineer the footings. If the area is wet consider alternatives. 1. Move the building site to a better area. 2. Dig out all the poor material and back fill it and provide good drainage for the area in question. If your stuck with the site, then I would consider digging out the poor material and backfilling the excavated area even if your contemplating going with a floating slab. Also, you may just want to dig a little deeper all the way around in spots to see what is down there. Possible you may have more soft stuff that is just out of sight.Another consideration is are you building on disturbed or undisturbed soil? Your building inspector may have a pretty good idea as to the type of soil conditions in your immediate area. By all means do it right and don't take any short cuts with bad soil conditions. Good luck. Ron

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Sal8N

02-09-2005 16:22:09

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Upper Peninsula,Mi, 02-09-2005 15:51:46

The area is dry.

It was excavated much larger than needed to be...in oder to see if it was a pocket. Got in the bottom of the hole and pushed a length of 1/2" rebar in by hand about 6 feet.

Yes...this is a heavy frost area.

Not sure I want to take a chance on digging to China and then filling/compacting...looking at relocating it within a reasonable distance.

This is an undisturbed site, we can go back to 100 years from what we know.

We have the geological survey that says we should be in bedrock.

To the drawinge board.

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Sal8N

02-09-2005 16:22:03

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Upper Peninsula,Mi, 02-09-2005 15:51:46

The area is dry.

It was excavated much larger than needed to be...in oder to see if it was a pocket. Got in the bottom of the hole and pushed a length of 1/2" rebar in by hand about 6 feet.

Yes...this is a heavy frost area.

Not sure I want to take a chance on digging to China and then filling/compacting...looking at relocating it within a reasonable distance.

This is an undisturbed site, we can go back to 100 years from what we know.

We have the geological survey that says we should be in bedrock.

To the drawinge board.

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Marty 2N IL

02-09-2005 15:35:36

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

Dig your footings deeper then fill with rock to the bottom of footing. I use the 3/4 rock with the lime dust. It packs nicely with a little water. Make sure your footing is below the frost line and you will not have any problems.

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corvette8n

02-09-2005 11:41:00

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

when I help put up a steel building 80x100 feet
they dug piers 8-10 feet deep 4x4 square and tied them into the poured floor with rebar.
This was in sandy soil, that was in 1985 and the building is still standing strong.

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TIMW(PA)

02-09-2005 11:31:32

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

I've wondered about that myself sometimes. I often wondered what would be wrong with going along with a 8 or 10 inch post hole digger every couple of feet and poking a hole down a couple of feet for a little extra strong footer, making sure to tie it all together with rebar to keep it from cracking. I've never tried it but I thought it would help....Tim

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ebbsspeed

02-09-2005 11:31:02

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

How long is the section of "soft" spot? If it's not over a few feet then I'd widen up the footing footprint on either side of the soft spot and use twice as much rebar as is normally called for across the soft area. This will give you a good solid concrete "joist" spanning the soft spot, and you should be OK. If it's more than a few feet, then I'd consider some pilings sunk in where the sopft spot is. I'm not a big fan of the "floating" slab unless you're somewhere that frost heaving isn't an issue.

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Jimmyjack

02-09-2005 11:04:25

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

sal, You are working in the right direction, but a lot depends on what you are putting on those footings. For example, 8 foot walls might require 10" footing with 3 pieces of 1/2" rebar when a 12 foot wall might need 16 inch footing with 3 pieces of 1/2 inch rebar. It also depends if you are working on compacted sand or clay. Local also is important as you may want to go below the frost line to prevent cracking. Fiberglass in the mix can strengthen the footings also, I think well worth the money if there are questions. Many contractors are using it to replace the wire mesh that is usless unless properly suspended when you pour.

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Sal8N

02-09-2005 11:27:17

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Jimmyjack, 02-09-2005 11:04:25

Actually have a contract to provide a footing per spec's. Plan on putting up a 3 bay garage/shop with loft...will have a few rows of block going up then 10 foot high walls. The engineering for the footings was done based on what they thought would be found for soil...shifting gears now though due to what we found...Bldg Inspector has been by the site too and will approve an engineered floating system...has done so in the past and had no problems...Just trying to get all options on the table now and go with the quality one without throuwing away good money on a bad cause.

Thanks.

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Dell (WA)

02-09-2005 10:13:27

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 09:05:06

Sal..... ....because footings are "expensive", everyone wants to minimumize both width and thickness and re-bar. That is why there is "code" specs, which is generally addequate ...but... as you are finding out, "code" is not always addequate. There is NO LAW ('cept yer pocketbook) that sez you can't exceed code. (and I would)..... ....Dell

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Sal8N

02-09-2005 10:48:45

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Dell (WA), 02-09-2005 10:13:27

Dell,

I have no problem paying to do the job right...afterall, if the footings aren"t right there will be a ton of problems to follow...

The excavation guy said that "normally" a wider and thicker footing will handle my needs...originally we were going 10" thick by 24" wide...I thought that would be good...but with the soft soil I want to get some quality engineering going.

Also thought about changing from 4" deep footings to a floating footing/slab...might be called by some an insulated slab on a good bed of drained runner crush. Fill in the trench I have and relocate the bldg a bit.

Just want the next solution to be a good one.

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ericlb

02-09-2005 12:03:13

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Re: O.T. Footing/Foundation in reply to Sal8N, 02-09-2005 10:48:45

hi guys something else they do around here [mountainous area] for footings is dig a little deeper and wider then go get some crusher fines, now these are waste fines, not the rock fines, this stuff compacts up hard as the dickens i have hauled many hundreds of tons of the stuff around the area, the local high school auditorium is sitting on a crusher fine slab 15 feet thick and the floor is still good in the building [ cement] ericlb

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