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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Head Bolts/Gasket woes

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SW3

03-24-2005 20:38:17




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I am in the process of replacing the head gasket on Myrtle(48'N). She has the bolts and not studs, 7/16-20 Two of them broke off so they had to be drilled out (not fun, but I was sucessful) Do you guys have any suggestions for replacement bolts, Grade 5 or 8? I was planning to use pipe sealant on the threads as many postings have suggested. Also should I replace all the bolts, or just the broken ones? Bought the head gasket from Ford/NH dealer so I will check with them first for the bolts. I have also read a lot of differing opions on head gasket sealant. The surfaces do have a couple nicks in them so I was wondering if I should us anything. The old gasket did not appear to have any. (The nicks of course are new and my fault) While drilling out the broken bolts some metal filings inevitably got into places where they did not belong. Mostly into the water jacket. I plan to clean everything as well as possible and flush the cooling system after reassembly. Will this be sufficient?
As always, thank you.

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Bob

03-25-2005 19:10:19




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 Re: Head Bolts/Gasket woes in reply to SW3, 03-24-2005 20:38:17  
I can't understand whay anyone would "toss" the cylinder head studs that Ford originally installed, and replace them with bolts. Using studs allows getting a more even, accurate torque. Sealant can be applied to the threads before the stud is screwed into the block, and allowed to "cure" before the head is installed, preventing any chance of water leaks up past the fastener head. And there is less chance of ever damaging the threads in the block when the proper stud is installed and threaded in to "grab" the threads in the block to the intended depth.

Here's an excerpt from the ARP website (a premier manufacturer of quality high-performance engine fasteners). They also advocate the preferred use of studs over bolts. (Not that the old low compression "N"'s can be considered "high performance, but with all the trouble some guys have with head gaskets and leaks up by the fastener heads, some of these projects need all the help they can get!)

From "ARP BOLTS.COM":

"For most applications, however, studs are recommended. And for good reason. Using studs will make it much easier to assemble an engine with the cylinder head and gasket assured of proper alignment.

Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque loading. Here’s why. When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being “twisted” while it’s being torqued to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a “relaxed” mode—never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut.

If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."

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Dan

03-25-2005 06:42:57




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 Re: Head Bolts/Gasket woes in reply to SW3, 03-24-2005 20:38:17  
It is always sugested to replace all head bolts when you remove the head. Because of the high torque, these bolts stretch, and when you re-use them, there is a higher chance it will break. You can still get the correct shouldered head bolts from Don B., or in a pinch new grade 5 or 8 bolts from a good hardware store. I would use grade 8 just because it is only a few pennies more and the overkill would give me piece of mind, but the rating for grade 5 is MORE than sufficient for your needs. Also, make sure you clean out any water or oil that is down in the bottom of the head bolt holes in the block that DO NOT go through to the water jacket. Many a block has been cracked on the edge because of this - get them clean and dry.

I don't like head gasket sealants - probably because I have had to clean it off, but coppercoat is a good product and will work for this application. They do make a soft head gasket that seals better when there are inperfections on the block or head...

As far as metal filings in the water jacket, I would not even worry about it. After seeing the slag the radiator shop left inside my radiator when they repaired it, a little metal must not be an issue.

Good luck,
Dan

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HOOKER

03-24-2005 21:10:54




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 Re: Head Bolts/Gasket woes in reply to SW3, 03-24-2005 20:38:17  
go back with new bolts (my .02 grade 8)
as for the shaving in the block, take yer long magnet stick and probe around all the water jacket holes till ya think ya got it all out and then do it again
i would definately use RECTOR SEAL thread sealant used in the plumbing industry
use a scotch brite pad on the head and block face..
put kopperkoat on both sides of the gasket if there is any knicks in the head and or block face
(sparingly)
put yer gasket on with the indentions on the metal seal up in past experience with bolts i ended up drilling them out and helicoil'um with 7/16-14x
3 1/4" studs they always work great but
IT'S EXPENSIVE 18x$2.45 == see what i mean
good luck and repost with yer results
jake

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gahorN

03-25-2005 16:07:24




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 Re: Head Bolts/Gasket woes in reply to HOOKER, 03-24-2005 21:10:54  
I"ve rebuilt scores of engines of all types both as a professional mechanic and also as a personal objective, and I believe in NOT using any headgasket sealant. (No objections to coppercoat, but it"s not a sealant really. It"s a release agent. It"s also not really needed on an engine you have no expectations of disassembling again. Hopefully you"ll never be back in there again, and even if you are, this is not a difficult head to remove.) Do not use Grade 8. More is not always better. (Goober: "Eef a leetle tork is gud...then I"ll riilly shower down on eet. EEt"le be better"n ev"r!") Use the correct head bolts from a supplier...if not available use grade 5. My 2 cents. Grade 8 is too brittle to properly stretch and form good tension....the real reason for using a torque wrench.) IMHO

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HOOKER

03-25-2005 18:03:02




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 Re: Head Bolts/Gasket woes in reply to gahorN, 03-25-2005 16:07:24  
torque for engine applications referrs to the amount of pressure applied between two surfaces!!!
why would you want stretch???
stretch would cause weakness!!!
these old "N" tractors were not made in the early 80's when the torque stretch bolts became a critical part of the automotive industry,, oh i forgot we're not in the automotive industry,,we're in the agriculture industry where the torque stretch studs didn't come into play until the mid 80's
just to save arguement the "SPEC" would be an SAE J429 stud and if you'll re-read my post,, i wasn't in favor of using sealant unless it had nicks on the surfaces ie; most tractor owners can't afford to pull a block out and take it to a machine shop to have it resurfaced..
thats why they came out with gasket sealers like kopperkoat just a cheap way to get by
jake

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