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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit long)

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Pat K

05-30-2005 17:57:43




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I wish I could say the I"ve just finished a rebuild of my mother"s 2N but I"m afraid I"ve got a bit more to do.

With a new piston /sleeve kit, new adjustable valves (and new exhaust seats), and a skim of the head and deck, I"ve only got 75,90,90,60 psi compression. Those numbers change to 95,98,98,85 with a squirt of oil.

I figure where I went wrong was in one of two places. First, the ring end gap was .016-.018 across the board when I checked them before installation. I asked the machine shop who supplied the kit and did the heavy work for me if that was too large since the book calls for .007-.012. They said that it should be fine. I also read somewhere that a service limit of .035 was acceptable?? I did not hone the new cylinders, they were between .002-.003 on the skirts and had a decent crosshatch, and I didn"t want to open the rings up anymore. I would have liked to get the crosshatch deeper but I held back.

The other thing that is nagging me is that they suggested that I grind the cam to go with the new lifters. I wonder if the lobe centers are off now adding to the ring problems.

Has anyone had a similar experience? I will look into oversized rings and possibly check the cam timing. To me, the compression test points to rings. Is there something else that it might be??

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Joe (IN)

05-31-2005 18:45:56




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
Well, I wish you had asked before you put her back together, Pat. It's pretty much mandatory to hone the cylinders at least a bit when installing new rings so that the new ones will "seat". That's not to say that they won't, but you didn't tilt the odds in their favor. If you haven't ran it yet, I personally would pull the pan, head, and pistons, carefully cover the crank, and run a ball hone up and down each cylinder a couple times. You really won't take much material off and you'll give the rings a much better chance of seating. If you've already ran it, give it a few hours to see if they seat. If oil consumption or low compression indicate that they still haven't seated, try getting some Comet, Bab-O, or similar abrasive cleaner and CAREFULLY and SLOWLY sprinkling about a tablespoon into the carburetor inlet while the engine is running at a high idle. The small amount of abrasive cleaner will get between the rings and walls and usually seat them. Obviously, an oil change will be in the near future after this method. I know it sounds kooky, but it's an old mechanic's trick and it really works. It's saved me from a second teardown a time or two. Good luck!

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Pat K

05-31-2005 19:59:29




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Joe (IN), 05-31-2005 18:45:56  
Thanks for all the replies folks, I just came in from the garage and have decided to tear into things again. Ran it for a while longer and re-checked things again with same results. But now the front seal is leaking. I could let it go with low compression, but I'd be too embarrassed to have it leaving little puddles everywhere. Joe, I will try the Comet tomorrow, if I'm tearing into things anyway, can't hurt. I'm kicking myself for not honing but like I said, it had a decent cross-hatch. I wonder if they left a high spot when they pressed in the sleeves. I checked the piston clearance with the piston in one orientation only. I have always started a new engine with no oil on the cylinders, just a squirt of WD-40. This time I went by the book and (lightly)coated the cylinders with motor oil, How do you break one in? If the Comet works, I'll post back tomorrow, if not, than I'll let you all know how things went back together next week.

Thanks, to all

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Dan

05-31-2005 08:36:19




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
Pat - I am no engine builder expert, but just got finished rebuilding my NAA engine. Here are a few things I learned that may or may not help you. A newly rebuild engine needs some run time to break in. New rings needs to seat to the piston walls, new valves need to mate with their moving counterparts, etc. I don't know what is wrong with #1 and #4 cylinders - your wet compression tests point to a ring sealing issue, but keep in mind the rings have not seated yet.

Also, new valves seem to stick in their new guides until enough run time wears them in where they rub together. While your wet compression results do not point directly to your valves, you could still have an issue there as well until broken in.

I am not saying you don't still have a potiential problem, but keep in mind new rebuilds won't give you perfect specs right off the bat - break in is required.

Good luck and keep up posted on the progress.

Dan

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Charles (in GA)

05-30-2005 20:34:13




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
Is the cam timed correctly to the crank?

Charles



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Pat K

05-30-2005 19:24:24




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
I re-checked my assembly notes, the top rings are between .020 and .026. The rest were around .014.



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Drmeatman

05-30-2005 18:15:21




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
Pat, the ring gap means nothing before installation. Each ring gap is measured 1 at a time in the cylinder it is to be used in.This is the gap your concerned with.Once measured and brought to specs then they are applied to the piston and staggered.Hope this helps.



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Pat K

05-30-2005 18:33:39




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Drmeatman, 05-30-2005 18:15:21  
I checked all of the rings and kept them with that cylinder they all measured approx the same. I did notice that after the rings were on the pistons, they had opened up a bit, maybe I sprung them with my $7.00 sears ring installer?



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Drmeatman

05-30-2005 18:50:09




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 18:33:39  
Pat, the valves I "always" take to the pro.I know nothing there. I'm pusseled as you. UUmmm, did you check piston ring grooves for wear? They wear out also.The groove gets larger and they even "v"out the grooves which causes the rings to float up and down (in the groove)and I understand they will float around. Probably no help here.



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Pat K

05-30-2005 19:17:30




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Drmeatman, 05-30-2005 18:50:09  
They are new Hastings rings, came with the new pistons. I didn't check the side clearance but they moved freely in the grooves. Thanks for the reply though, I looked back on my notes that I took during assembly, the top rings are all between .020 and .026, the rest are around .014.



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wisconsinBill

05-30-2005 20:43:20




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K , 05-30-2005 19:17:30  
When building cycle racing engines, I put rings into rebored cylinders, used piston to push them into position in cyl bore at about the top of the bore and measured the end gap. Racing specs were .002-.004 but broke-in specs were 'safer' at .004-.006 and we had plenty of compression. Took the fastest 50cc in the state and 2nd fastest in national 1/2 mile! There were specs for groove width but I forgot-that was back in the 1980's. Then again we only had the 1 ring so had a tighter end gap. I kind of remember much bigger end-gaps with 2-3 rings and gaps were off-set and lots of compression. I thought the cross=hatching and seating was more important for compression.

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ericlb

05-30-2005 18:05:23




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to Pat K, 05-30-2005 17:57:43  
pat i know you didnt do this, but you didnt by chance get all the ring gaps lined up in a row on the pistons did you?, and did you chech the valves for proper seating ? if there adjusted too tight, they wont seal, thats about all i can think of on a flathead but someone will be along shortly that may know of something else to check



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souNdguy

05-31-2005 07:44:36




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to ericlb, 05-30-2005 18:05:23  
If the compression went up with oil.... it isn't a valve issue.

Soundguy



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Pat K

05-30-2005 18:27:10




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 Re: In the process of learning a lesson. (A bit lo in reply to ericlb, 05-30-2005 18:05:23  
I spaced the 1st and second rings 180deg apart facing front to back. I lapped the valves and all seemed to be ok. I had one guide that would not allow more than 1/3 contact on any valve seat but I replaced that one. I also had two bad new lifters, one was so cross-threaded that it wouldnt budge,and another that was so loose I couldnt see it holding adjustment. I replaced both of them too. How tight should the adjustable lifters be? Some do seem tighter than others. I did re-check the valve lash after my first low compression check. still OK.

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