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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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? About Pos Ground

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RMAC (KY)

06-03-2005 07:22:58




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I was reading these forums and just learned that 8N has positive ground. I just bought it and am working on it and noticed the battery neg is connected to frame, and pos is connected to starter cyl.,but it starts and runs fine. Can't tell what the amp gauge is doing, it's rusted over. (I'm getting ready to order one). Do I just switch the wires around or what? Would my voltage regulator be damaged?
Thanks, Robert

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Danny in CO

06-03-2005 10:43:27




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to RMAC (KY), 06-03-2005 07:22:58  
Robert,

As Dell mentioned, MAKE SURE you have a generator before you switch the ground cable to positive. If you have an alternator, leave it negative ground! If you switch and have an alternator, you will fry the alternator. Not Good!

Danny



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Dell (WA)

06-03-2005 08:10:01




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to RMAC (KY), 06-03-2005 07:22:58  
Robert..... ...there are "obscure" technical reasons for "positive ground". Its called the "Edison Effect" (and is the reason yer computer TV screen works) named after Henry Ford's friend Thomas Edison. I've explained this effect many times, its in the archives. Has to do with metalic atoms being ionized under heat and pressure and electrical voltage causing transferance and errosion. Personally, with Henry Ford's love of LAWYERS, I always thought it was Henry's way to keep from paying General Motors patent license fees. A better question to ask is "Why 6-volts?". It was the smallest cheapest battery that General Motors could find to reliablily crank their Caddilac's new electric starter motor that they developed.

As for yer current situation, your "incorrect" negative ground could cost you upto -40% of yer sparkies and hard starting and missing. Fortunately, yer sparkies have excess capacity to allow for normal wear and may not notice yer weak sparkies (yet).

You can change yer battery's flat ground braid cable to positive (+) ground ...IF... you "re-polarize" yer voltage regulator and generator correctly. You can re-polarize as many times as you think you need to for what ever reason, correctly done, doesn't hurt a thing.

ADVISEMENT: 12v alternators internal solid state guttz DEMAND negative ground. Old fashioned gennys don't care as long as they are correctly polarized to match the battery.

Since yer stater motor don't care positive or negative ground; and yer battery don't care, positive or negative ground; and yer genny don't care positive or negative ground as long as yer voltage regulator is properly polarized by yer battery; and amazingly enuff, even yer center reading ampmeter don't care positive or negative ground ...ONLY YOU semi-care... because you've been "trained" to watch the ampmeter indicate (+) when the genny is charging the battery.

And iff'n you replace yer "loop" ampmeter with a 2-terminal ampmeter, and iff'n yer ampmeter reads incorrect charge polarity, just swap yer ampmeter leads so yer ampmeter indicates (+) when charging. Simple, eh?

Iff'n you need help about the concept and proceedure for "re-polarizing" yer electrical system, we need to know wheather you've gottta 1-wire 9N/2N genny with roundcan cut-off relay under yer battery tray ...or... iff'n you have a 3-wire genny and squarecan voltage regulator 8N..... ....respectfully, Dell who is full off-itt

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Dan

06-03-2005 07:57:28




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to RMAC (KY), 06-03-2005 07:22:58  
If you are new to your 8N, you probably do not know how to re-polorize your V/R (actually, it is your generator you are re-polorizing). Because of the way generators produce electricity through magnetic fields, it will flow both ways (+ to - or - to +), you just need to get the ball rolling for it to do this. To re-polorize your generator, spark short between your "ARM" and "BAT" terminals on your voltage regulator - they are right next to each other usually. It will spark - that is ok. Only a few seconds is needed. Do this after you move the battery cables, and with the engine off.

Good luck,
Dan

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Bruce (VA)

06-03-2005 07:35:08




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to RMAC (KY), 06-03-2005 07:22:58  
Without going into the electrical theory, positive ground provides a hotter spark. (Kirschoffs Law, as I recall). Just connect it correctly, re-polarize the v/r, and all should be fine.



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Ramrod

06-03-2005 08:03:37




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-03-2005 07:35:08  
That is an interesting theory. Please elaborate on hotter spark from positive ground system.

Ramrod



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Steve(OR)

06-03-2005 08:14:43




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Ramrod, 06-03-2005 08:03:37  
Its called the Edison Effect, also known as thermionic emission. Electrons move better when the negative electrode is hotter than the positive electrode. The center electrode on a sparkplug is hotter than the outer so it makes sense to make it negative. The outer electrode which is grounded then becomes positive.

Apparently with a 12 volt system the spark is hot enough either way that the Edison effect can be ignored.

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Steve(OR)

06-03-2005 08:29:34




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Steve(OR), 06-03-2005 08:14:43  
Here is a link. Go down the page and look under Spark Plugs.



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Ramrod

06-03-2005 08:23:04




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Steve(OR), 06-03-2005 08:14:43  
How is a guy in electronics all his life and never hear about this stuff? Getting into old tractors is making me smarter, but poorer. What can I get into that will make me better looking and richer?

Ramrod



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Dell (WA)

06-03-2005 08:14:03




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Ramrod, 06-03-2005 08:03:37  
Ramrod..... ..notta therory, actual fact. Incorrect ignition coil polarity with respect to battery ground can cost you upto -40% of yer sparkies. Please read my positive ground answer to RMAC..... .Dell



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Dan

06-03-2005 08:11:41




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Ramrod, 06-03-2005 08:03:37  
There are quite a few posts by Dell that explains this pretty well in the archives (far better than my electrically challenged brain). Basically electricity likes to flow from - to + from what I gather. It will run the other way, but not as well. Because of this phenomenon, the 6v N tractors run "best" as + ground.

Dan



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Steve(OR)

06-03-2005 08:18:16




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Dan, 06-03-2005 08:11:41  
Electrons ALWAYS flow from - to + by definition. Never + to -.



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rbell

06-03-2005 12:00:23




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Steve(OR), 06-03-2005 08:18:16  
Then which way do the holes flow?



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Dan

06-03-2005 08:21:12




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Steve(OR), 06-03-2005 08:18:16  
Somehow I KNEW I shouldn't have been sleeping in my physical science classes :)

Thanks,
Dan



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rurlndum

06-03-2005 08:42:39




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to Dan, 06-03-2005 08:21:12  
Somehow I KNEW I shouldn't have been teaching physical science. ALL of my students were sleeping.



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DanL-Colorado-9N252085

06-03-2005 20:44:44




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 Re: ? About Pos Ground in reply to rurlndum, 06-03-2005 08:42:39  
My brain hurts. I think I'll just go free up some shim stock for my governor shaft.



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