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Help - no oil pressure after rebuild!

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 14:29:52




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No oil pressure. I did everything: I pulled the plugs & started the motor. Like, 25 times. I even hooked up my 6 volt battery to a 12 volt charger to get more speed. Then, my friend"s farmhall towed me in 3rd gear at decent speed, like 1/4 mile, never came up. Removed the links and no oil is coming up to the governor. What do you think I should do next? Is it the pump?

Thanks,

J




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Jason Simmerman

06-18-2005 21:04:35




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:29:52  
Like they said prime it and see. Hmm... Towed for 7-8 minutes huh? If you end up dropping the pan I would pull a few bearing caps and inspect. If you are saying a for real 7-8 minutes I would really check it out before you go any further if you get that far into it. Ensure you still have a good crosshash pattern on the sleeves and all. I have always been able to prime with just good old 10w30, no real need for heavy oil. You expect it to hold a prime if it sits for a month or so don't you? And all that sits in there is just regular engine oil. Did you install a gasket between the pickup tube plate or just bolt it up. I had a small crack in mine and how I found that was I basically just pulled the pump off and plugged the top hole of the pump with my finger where the oil comes out and sucked in on the pickup tube making a vacuum like you used to with a soda pop bottle when you were a kid (I know yuck but it is effective). If it holds vacuum then you know the gasket and all are good. If not then investigate further and your problem probiably lies there. I found that the paper gasket that is in the rebuild kits doesn't seal as it should. Used black permatex on both sides of the paper gaskets a few times and never had a problem. Just don't get carried away with the stuff. Also did you plastigage the bearings when you put it together? If you have standard size bearings on a crank that is ground .020 this will happen too. If you can't get pressure by priming or it is low don't take any chances and pull the motor back out. It only takes a few hours by yourself even. Like they said it's faster the second time around LOL. Take your time and look it all over again. It's better than rebuilding the motor again.

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Hobo,NC

06-17-2005 19:04:02




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:29:52  
Prime the pump first and iffin no O/P try this. Its'a pump gotta be able to pic up oil to pump. If you are miss'n oil galley plugs you kin still diagnois the pump then if you fell the pump is work'n you kin look in utter places.



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VTjim

06-17-2005 17:12:13




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:29:52  
I had the same problem when I rebuilt my 50'8n...no oil pressure when I started it up and just couldn't get it to come up. After reading some of the archive posts on this website I took a pump oil can, filled it with 30wt and pulled the pressure plug (screw cap, spring, and ballbearing) on the front of the lock...squirted oil in to the opening to prime the pump...put the it all back together and started it up....worked great after that.

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 17:29:35




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to VTjim, 06-17-2005 17:12:13  
Wow, I hope you're right. Gonna try that. But I towed it for a good 7-8 minutes in 3rd gear - wouldn't that do it?

J



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Rob

06-17-2005 17:55:30




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 17:29:35  
No. It can"t pick up without a prime.

You can"t expect even a new pump to do that.



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Russ SoCal

06-17-2005 19:40:20




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 'Less ya live sumplace like.....! in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 17:55:30  
....Los Angeles where they got SAE 20W50 AIR!!!



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Rob

06-17-2005 14:38:32




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:29:52  
Do you have any spare 1/8" slotted pipe plugs left over from the rebuild? I know where they go. One goes in each end of the oil gallery that runs next to the cam shaft. No OP if those aren"t in place.
You can prime your oil pump through the oil pressure relief spring dingy on the front of the engine.. Try that and hope for the best.
Then maybe the oil pick up tube won"t. If it"s cracked or something.

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 14:41:52




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 14:38:32  
I only know of one of those pipe plugs. There are 2?!?! Oh no...are you sure?



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Rob

06-17-2005 14:50:34




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:41:52  
Yes I am sure. Plug in each end of the gallery. It"s cheap and reletively easy to try the prime first.
Second, pull the oil drain plug and tap the pick up tube, if it goes "clunk" it might well be cracked. If it sings it is probably fine.
All that fails you then you can pull the gear off the end of the cam shaft to confirm the front plug is installed. The plug in the rear is more of a problem to put your finger on but I imagine if that is missing you will be pumping oil into the flywheel area. Maybe oil should be dripping out the cotter-keyed weep hole if that back plug is missing.

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 14:55:47




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 14:50:34  
Thanks Rob. What's weird is I just did a whole rebuild of everything, restoring my grandfather's tractor. We rebuilt the pump but didn't replace it. I remember the pipe plug behind the flywheel - definitely that's in.

I guess my question is this: if it isn't the pump - do I have to open up the whole friggin' engine?!?!



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Rob

06-17-2005 15:05:57




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 14:55:47  
You have to remove the pan to get to the pump. And by best practice standard, if you replace that pump and not just rebuild the old pump you remove the engine, strip it down and get the new pump line-bored to match the other crank journals. But I believe more than a few pumps have been installed without the line-bore routine; not sure about that.
Just try priming through the oil pressure relief. Do that before you worry too much. Then you can check the pick up tube before you even remove the pan.

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 15:25:23




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 15:05:57  
Thanks, Rob. I'll try that...and pray

J



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Dell (WA)

06-17-2005 16:00:14




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 15:25:23  
Jordan..... ...USE HEAVY 90wt OIL to prime yer oilpump thru the BIG pressure relief nut behind the water pump. Iff'n you use just regular engine oil, it'll leak right thru the oilpump gears before you even gitt the pressure relief valve and spring installed. (yes, the pressure relief valve is supposted to have that flat spot)

Normally, oilpump rebuild you stuff the oilpump gears with chassis grease to create enuff suction to prime yer pump. Lets hope its just a simple thing, eh?..... ....Dell

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 16:05:32




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 I'm worried, Dell in reply to Dell (WA), 06-17-2005 16:00:14  
Thanks, that's the first thing I'll try. I've been rebuilding this thing for more than a year and I realize the oil pump got the least attention...rebuilt it with the kit but never checked the tube ir anything...I hate to ask you this, but...what's worst case scenario?

J



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Dell (WA)

06-17-2005 16:33:35




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 Re: I'm worried, Dell in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 16:05:32  
Jordan..... ..until you gittchur oilpump pumpin' oil, all yer assembly lube greesed bearings ain't gonnna gitt washed out. You did pre-lube yer crankshaft bearing shells, didn't you?

I think just a good oilpump prime with very heavy oil will gittcha pumpin' again ...unless... yer oilpump suck'em-up tube-arm has come loose and that still won't cause bearing damage.....yet. You damage bearings when the combustion forces cause things to move. Oil protects things from rubbin' together and other nasty stuff..... ...Dell

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 16:43:18




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 Re: I'm worried, Dell in reply to Dell (WA), 06-17-2005 16:33:35  
Dell,

Can't imagine the oil pump tube is loose, we rebuilt the thing. Let me ask you this: I towed in 3rd gear for 7-8 minutes, how can it not be primed? Is that possible. And another thing: if I remove all the linkage, and oil pressure is ok, will oil squirt out of the governor when it turns over?

J



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Russ SoCal

06-17-2005 19:32:18




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 Re: I'm worried, Dell in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 16:43:18  
Jordan,
Not likely. Only a small percentage of the oil goes through the filter and dribbles into the governor. You could loosen one of the lines at the brass fitting on the right rear corner of the block where the lines go to the oil pressure gauge and the oil filter.
Towing won't prime yer pump. I dunno what the SAE viscosity of air is, but it's awful low. Too low fer a gear type pump to work on.
To butcher Shakespeare, "Methinks ye doth be sweatin' it too much."
Good luck,
Russ

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Rob

06-17-2005 15:38:12




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 15:25:23  
If you didn"t put the front plug in there you have to remove the front cover and the cam gear to replace it.
That can be missing without any external oil leak but then priming pump won"t do any good.

Probably that front or the oil pump prime. Assemblers will pack the pump with assembly lube or some such to give it a prime.



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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 16:08:47




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 15:38:12  
Rob, my one hope is that's the reason cause I never primed it with anything. Still, I towed it for a good 7-8 minutes...wouldn't that prime it? Basically it sounds like I should throw tons of heavy oil in the relief valve and hope for the best...what worries me is what if that doen't work?

J



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Bob

06-18-2005 14:08:20




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 16:08:47  
If the pump has a problem, or just never primed, pulling it around for that long with no oil pressure can "toast" things just as quickly as if it were running. The bearings need a steady flow of lube! If no oil pressure in less than 1/2 minute of running, or pulling it, it's time to stop and find out what's wrong before damage is done.

An old hot-rod engine bulider's trick is to use an external source of pressurized oil to fill the oil galleries, prime the pump, and lube the bearings, before the engine is ever started.

You can use a NEW, clean, pump-up garden sprayer that will cost $10.00 to $20.00 to make a simple system to do this. Simply cut off the plastic wand ahead of the nozzle. Get a brass hose barb that will screw into the oil gauge fitting at the back of the block. Connect the cut off wand and the brass fitting with a piece of gas hose and clamps.

Put some motor oil in the spryer, and pump it up.

If all is OK, the oil will fill the oil galleries, and bleed off, relatively slowly through the bearings, and into the crankcase.

If you have a missing gallery plug, or other major interanl leak, the oil will flow very quickly out of the sprayer, and into the crankcase, and you'll notice you're not building any pressure with the sprayer.

If it seems all is well, you can re-connect the oil gauge, and start the engine, which should QUICKLY develop oil pressure. You'll have to drain out excessive oil before continuing to operate the engine, but some extra oil for the initial startup won't hurt, and, in fact, will be good.

If there seems to be an internal leak, you'll have to drop the oil pan to track it down.

With the pan off, you can again apply oil pressure to the oil gallery with your makeshift pressure system, and look for the internal leak. The better the fit of the rod and main bearings, the slower the drip of oil will be from each, and a missing plug, or other problem will show up as a BIG leak.

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Rob

06-17-2005 16:16:15




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 Re: Help - no oil pressure after rebuild! in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 16:08:47  
Prime it and see. There will be plenty of time to worry if that fails.

Then you have to remove the front cover for that silly plug thing. Both plugs come out to clean the gallery. If you only replaced one plug and it was in the back side then that front plug is high on the list of things to check.

Only then should you pull the pan and pump.

Don"t worry so much, it comes apart easier the second time. Goes back quicker too.

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Jordan Levinson

06-17-2005 16:44:39




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 Thanks for the advice, Rob in reply to Rob, 06-17-2005 16:16:15  
...appreciate it. I'll let you know how it pans out.

J



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gahorN

06-18-2005 22:57:32




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 Re: Thanks for the advice, Rob in reply to Jordan Levinson, 06-17-2005 16:44:39  
Jordan, you keep asking the same question (and that may be because no one ever answered it.) No. Pulling that thing around for a hundred miles does not "prime" it. "Prime" means to do something "First". (Same Root word as in "Primary".) In other words, before a dry, empty oil pump will ever suck any oil up from the sump to push it on to all the engine parts...it must first be capable of creating a suction when it is turned. Your pulling the tractor in gear, or hitting the starter button, turned the pump/gears....but it was a dry pump and incapable of creating a suction. The oil you fill the pump cavity with thru the pressure relief or backwards thru the oil line at the gauge fitting (or the assembly grease you First packed the pump with ...if you indeed packed it First with grease) is what helps it create that suction. In other words, FIRST/Primary thing to do is to Prime the Pump (with oil). (Banjo Music: "You've got to...Prime the Pump, You must have Faith and Believe, You've gotta...Give of Your-self... 'fore you're Worthy to Recieve. Drink all the water you can hold. Wash your face, Cool your feet, But leave the bottle full for others. Thank ye' kindly, Desert Pete.) - Kingston Trio. 1962 ;Þ

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