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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Hydraulic oil

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SargeVT

06-29-2005 05:57:51




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Some time ago, I bought 5 gal of 80W90 at local NAPA store. I was about to put it in my 8N when I found in small print "API Service GL-5,GL-4." It also says "Meets or exceeds the requirements of Ford M2C 108-C." Recently I read in this forum that GL-3 and GL-5 is not the right oil, that it is bad for brass and other materials. Should I try to return it and try to find a GL-1? I have installed new seals on the input shaft and pto. Last year when I drained the tranny, it looked like a butter scotch frappe.

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Rob

06-29-2005 19:33:16




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to SargeVT, 06-29-2005 05:57:51  
If you have a TSC then they have Ford Hydraulic Fluid. It"s GL-1 and the label is marked "for Ford 1939 to 1952 tractors." The other farm/ranch stores around here have that same product in another brand. So does the COOP. $33 everyday at TSC, $26 on sale.



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souNdguy

06-29-2005 07:23:57




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to SargeVT, 06-29-2005 05:57:51  
Actually.. gl-3 probably would'nt be bad. the oil that TSC sells -may- be close to a gl-3. there are also some gl-4 oils that do not attack yellow metal. Castrol and penzoil both have a gl-4 out that specifically claims this. Other than those.. napa 65-205 90wt gl-1 oil.. or wallmart gl-1 90wt oil are ok.

Soundguy



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gahorN

06-29-2005 07:38:10




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 06-29-2005 07:23:57  
The most common gear oil available these days is GL-5 80W90. It is used in virtually all rear ends, transmissions, etc. and in machinery all around the country. There is a large contingent of folks who imagine this eating up all the "yellow" metals that don't exist in N tractors and making the tractors lose weight. ;Þ (Hint: This is not a synchronized transmission. Synchronized transmissions commonly use brass synchros and bushings. Synchronized transmissions commonly specify the use of GL-5. Must not be a problem, heh?) Don't concern yourself with this. The more I visited with experienced old-timers in the tractor business the more amusing this argument has become. N Fords have been running around with common GL-5 for decades. Mine works just fine with it. If you already have GL-3 or -4 , that's fine. Use it. If you can easily obtain GL-1 (or trade for it) then that's good too. But I wouldn't lose a single moments sleep about using GL-5 gear oil in an N Ford. IMHO

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souNdguy

06-29-2005 11:20:07




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 06-29-2005 07:38:10  
Here's the pertinant part o fthe test from the faq from penzoil, reguarding the specail gearplus line of gl-4 bronze safe oils they carry.

They also market a 'synchromesh' oil for certain GM and chrysler applications that works in manual trannies and gear boxes.. parrafin based.. etc. I've included the URL ....

Soundguy

GEARPLUS® SAE 80W-90 GL-4 A Specialty Gear Oil For Applications Requiring GL-4 Performance PRODUCT DESCRIPTION PENNZOIL® GEARPLUS® SAE 80W-90 GL-4 GEAR LUBRICANT is specially formulated to meet the unique requirements of API GL-4 service in manual transmissions and transaxles of passenger cars, light trucks and SUV’s. PENNZOIL® GEARPLUS® SAE 80W-90 GL-4 GEAR LUBRICANT is blended from select base stocks and additives that yield a lubricant of exacting quality. This product is compounded utilizing specialized extreme pressure chemistry that provides protection of gears and bearings without being corrosive to bronze components. It contains foam suppressants to prevent wear, which can be caused by lubricant foaming and aeration.

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souNdguy

06-29-2005 10:54:44




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 06-29-2005 07:38:10  
Also.. one more thing... Gl-1 oil should be able to be obtained anywhere a NAPA store is located.. or thru special request at a wallmart, as many of their stores stock it.

Soundguy



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souNdguy

06-29-2005 10:53:17




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 06-29-2005 07:38:10  
Apparently you have never, ever been inside the rear housing on an N. There's plenty of yellow metal in there.

Think about it for a few minutes. If you need a hint... post back.

Also.. the yellow metal problem is not so much of a myth... Both Penzoil and Castrol specifically market a gl-4 lube that is designed to be safe for yellow metals... they have a faq in PDF format specifically talking about it. Considering how long those oil companies have been in business.. I'd guess they have the info available and the facts on hand to back up their claims.

Soundguy

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Carl K

06-29-2005 17:57:08




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 06-29-2005 10:53:17  
If you reread Llamas' article you will notice that the 9N and 2N manuals specified mineral oil (today's GL-1) and the 8N manual specifies Mild EP oil what Llamas called GL-3. I don't think GL-3 is available anymore (I could be wrong). The closest we can get today is GL-4. If the container says it meets both GL-4 and GL-5 specs then its GL-5, and I wouldn't use it. I also wouldn't use GL-1 in an 8N because the manual specifically called for Mild EP oil. PS - For what its worth, the fellow I bought my 8N from, who rebuilt and sold Ford tractors for a living, told me to only use EP oil in the tranny/hydraulic system.

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souNdguy

06-29-2005 19:21:01




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to Carl K, 06-29-2005 17:57:08  
You are missing a few points of obvious logic.

1, A gl-4 oil may meet lubrication minimums of that level, by using a lubricant addative ofther than sulfur.. which is one o fthe ones that may harm yellow metals. All it would take is a reformulation and different lubricant. For instance.. the pennzoil PDF file specifically adresses the fact that their gl-4 oil was designed for applications that wanted/needed the extra lube of the gl-4 spec.. but needed yellow metal protection , which is not commonly found in other gl-4/5 oils. It's in black and white.. take a look.

The fact that the 9n and 2n manual stated one oil, and the 8n manual stated another oil is most likely due to the fact that they spec'ed whatever was the common oil on the market at the time. Remember that there was a bit of time lapse and oil advancement from 1939 to 1947. Another curious point is the rear end parts are identical for the N's... same ring and pinion.. therefore oil / requirements should be the same..

If you took two identical parts.. and placed one in a 9n, and one in an 8n.. there is no magical reason why one would be limited to gl-1 and the other could magically use a ( gl-3?) mild ep oil, just based on the name of the machine they set in.

As for gl-3.. Llamas seems to hint that the tractor supply oil for ford tractors may be mildly ep.. due to the sniff test.. I'd guess this might be a gl-3.. absent any other specs on it... hard to say.

As for ep oil like a gl-5 inthe system. I know lots of people do it. I do believe there may be marginal yellow metal damage occouring. Whether this is enough to show up in a few decades.. hard to say.. I'm not a metalurgist.. or petroleum engineer.

It would be interesting to have an oil anylisis of a N using gl-1 for a year, and then gl-5 after a complete sump cleaning... then see what the metal numbers show..

Soundguy

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Carl K

06-30-2005 14:00:52




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 06-29-2005 19:21:01  
You make a good point about the parts being the same in the 9/2Ns and the 8Ns. I didn't know the parts were interchangeable. So GL-1 would be fine for 8Ns. However from what I've read on the Web, I think all GL-4 oils have less of the yellow metal eating stuff than the GL-5, not just Pennzoil and Quakerstate, and so should all be OK for use. PS- I'm the guy who posted that link to the Pennzoil and Quakerstate PDFs. I guess I need to reread them more closely, too. Thanks, Carl K

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souNdguy

06-30-2005 20:55:45




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to Carl K, 06-30-2005 14:00:52  
I do agree that gl-4 spec oils probably have less 'damaging' content than gl-5 oils.

And yes.. like many o fhte parts n the N.. lots are interchangeable.. Heck.. the rear half of a 9n will physically bolt to an 8n.. for that matter.. a fergy rear end will bolt up.. go figure!

All in all.. I'm with the TSC ford fluid.. or gl-1.. that way I don't have to guess. A few machines I have use the utf fluid.. etc.

The oil faqus are pretty boring.. the msds and data sheets that are linked are even more booring. I can make out about half of it before I decided I needed more letters by my last name..

Soundguy

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gahorN

07-07-2005 19:10:55




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 06-30-2005 20:55:45  
Well, I"ll only restate my reluctance to believe that GL5 is damaging to our N tractors. An excellent resource is the API website you and others have already posted which seem to me to support my belief. The N series tractors use hypoid gears. (The pinion runs lower than center of the ring gear, and the teeth are spiral...not bevel.) This requires an extreme pressure lubricant. Both the API and the Pennzoil websites support that also. The original GL1 oil that Ford originally recommended was the best available at the time, and the subsequent GL-3/4 oils that were later recommended were also the best available at the time of publication. The GL5 oil was a later development, and that oil is not the boogey-man imagined, in my honest opinion. Lots to do about nothing, is still my belief. GL5 is a later, better oil, commonly available and not damaging as many imagine. (It"s actually good for the longevity of hypoid gears. See the associated API link: Link ) Therefore, I believe GL1 is not particularly good for longevity for our tractors, and while the GL3/4 series is certainly better...the GL5 is the best of all the GL series...again...in my honest opinion. (No prohibition exists for it"s use, either, that I"ve been able to find. I suspect the ol" imagination is hard at work in this instance.) Best regards to all.

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souNdguy

07-07-2005 20:17:59




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 07-07-2005 19:10:55  
What don't you get about the FACT that gl-5 adds are damaging to yellow metal.?!?!?

Are you choosing to ignore it.. or simply not worried about it???

And I'm not refering to the gear make and design.. they have nothing to do with the yellow metal issue.

The issue about gl-5 oils is well documented. so much so that some oil manufacturers have made a gl-4 oils that is specifically 'yellow-metal' friendly. Castrol and Penzoil are the two that have been posted about so far. No 'myth' or 'boogey man' the amount of ep adds in common gl-5 oils CAN damage yellow metal... simple chemestry...

Soundguy

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gahorN

07-08-2005 12:18:41




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 07-07-2005 20:17:59  
Soundguy, I'm not trying to inflame or anything like that. I can read. I see all the hoopla made about the so called "yellow metal" issues. But when was the last time you heard of an N tractor being torn down and repaired due to "yellow metal" parts deterioration due to GL5? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say...."never". It's purely an imaginary boogey-man. We'll all be in our graves well into the next century before your "yellow metals" are injured to the point of requireing replacement by the effects of GL5. (As Parts/MX technician for an aviation group I was called on to research "yellow metals" deteriortion due to sulfur/phosphor additives in oil, and I contacted a major supplier of such lubricants, Shell Refining in Houston, Tx. Their engineering group responded with a long dissertation regarding their laboratory test results. Bottom line...spectro-analysis offered some confirmation that the additive will "leach" copper (a bronze component) from certain babbit and plain bearings in miniscule amounts. The amounts were infinitesmally ridiculous. It was not considered operationally significant. Keep in mind that parts made of so-called "yellow metals" are typically bushings, etc. that are BY DESIGN to be replaced at overhaul/service intervals. They are not in the same category as gearshafts/gears which if undamaged may be reutilized during rebuild. (EP additives will help asure they remain reuseable.) The "yellow metal" parts are by design softer, and expendable...at a rate FAR GREATER than the corrosive effects of modern lubricants. In other words...the yellow metals are not endangered by the EP additives as much as they are by wear due to the LACK of EP additives. The final decision was....that it was A GOOD THING TO HAVE THE ADDITIVES IN OPERATIONAL AIRCRAFT ENGINES. It was not recommended for long-term preservation of engines in storage only. Why the difference? Because stored engines don't suffer the wear for which the operational engines need the protective additives anti-wear/extreme-pressure properties. Doh.) But.....there's been quite a few pinion and ring gear sets I've seen torn up by the use of GL1 and 134 oils which do not have the EP properties of GL5. I'd rather have my yellow metals dissolve sometime in/around the year 2250 A.D. than my pinion/ring gears shred apart in 2005 like my neighbor's did last year (used GL1), and the marine dealers TWO N-Fords did (used them to pull new/used boats into/out of the showroom and shop) also. Neither used GL5. Both used 134. (toungue-in-cheek, now,... meaning this as jesting sarcasm.) How 'bout it folks? How many have had to replace all your yellow metal parts documented as due to GL5? I think I'll spend my time shredding the sagebrush rather than my gears...and let the great grandkids buy new bushings when they have all the fun of restoring my 9N....IF they need replacing, that is. ;Þ

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souNdguy

07-08-2005 12:40:02




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 07-08-2005 12:18:41  
I don't see all the posts of gearsets falling out of N's on the driveway and in the barn like you refer to. Going back thru the archive i can count on one hand the number of peopl elooking for ring and pinion gears. Half of those were due to other failures.. like rivits popping out.. etc.

As fro 134.. it does have some ep addatives. NH uses that almost ecclusively as a 1 size fits all oil for final drives, trannies, etc.. al sliding gear apps.. etc.

I'd imagine a gl-3 would be a good compromise oil in general.. or a gl-4 designed to be yellow metal safe..

Also.. I'm not refering to bushings and gears... for the yellow metal damage.. etc.

Soundguy

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gahorN

07-14-2005 11:01:24




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to souNdguy, 07-08-2005 12:40:02  
So, if 134 has EP additives, ... then what's wrong with GL5 having EP additives? And, please quit beating around the bush,and be specific about what specific yellow metal parts you're concerned about,and specifically give examples of how/where GL5 has caused their failure. Thank you.



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souNdguy

07-14-2005 12:29:00




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 Re: Hydraulic oil in reply to gahorN, 07-14-2005 11:01:24  
Mildly ep as I understand it.. like same way fl-3 is mildly ep.. not massively ep like gl-5

Hydro pump.. that should be an easy call.

Most N pumps are very worn at this point... ANY thing that further wears on them, no matter how insignificant, is going to be detrimental. Especially since no one is making new hydro pumps for these machines that I know of.

Soundguy



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