Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

OT. Concrete woes

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
RoNofohio

09-18-2005 08:44:11




Report to Moderator

Any concrete finishers out there? Me and six of my friends poured a 85" X 20" pad from my home to the barn. Not a pretty site. Only two besides myself have had much experience with concrete. I have poured two driveways, two patios, and a barn floor.

I used 4500 strength and it started setting before we could empty the last of three trucks. The driver said that I should have never ordered 4500 strengh as it is a quick-setting concrete. And it was. It was so thick and really hard to scree and floating was impossible. We did the best that we could.

I only ordered 4500 because one of the two estimaters that I had suggested it for it"s additional strengh. We tried to get the driver to continue adding more water as it was becoming too thick and impossible to scree much less float. We only took one little 10 minute coffee break between the 2nd and 3rd trucks and that was apparently a big mistake.

So I"m not sure if the concrete began to set too fast because of the 4500 strength, or if they added a quick-setting compound, or if it was the 1.5 hours it had to set in the truck. I think the driver should have added more water, but am not sure. I am going to call in a professional and get his opinion on how to correct this.

If you are wandering why I didn"t go with the professionals from the beginning, one wanted $4000 and the other $3550 for $1800 worth of concrete. Looking back, it was probably a good idea to hire one of them.

I guess I am looking for some direction. If the concrete company "goofed" up on this, I need to know. In my heart, I really think they should have told me that it was quick setting, but I take full responsibility because I didn"t ask the right questions....Thanks for reading and thanks for any information...Ron

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
RoNofohio

09-19-2005 09:22:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I stopped at the concrete co. this am and he said basically the same thing. If I had asked for information, he would have gladly gave it. But since I called and asked for 4500, he presumed that I knew what I was doing. He also said that for this drive/parking pad, he would have recommended 4500 w/fiber anyway. He said that on any job, its just a matter of off-loading, screeing, floating immediately and then finishing. I just waited too long to start floating, I guess...anyway, I have a "professional" on the way to look at the damage and give me an assessment of my options. Ouch!! Gonna be expensive, I do believe..Thanks to all and I hope someone besides myself can learn something from my mistakes and your posts and not make the same mistakes again....Ron

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
OH Boy

09-19-2005 09:05:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
You probably bit off too large a slab for the size and experience of your crew. 85X20 is a huge slab for an amatuer crew to handle. I figure you needed at least two guys on finishing duty, that left you with only four to pour and screed. Professionals would have a power screed and at least four guys out there raking and shoveling in front of the screed. A 20 foot screed board make for tired arms if you do it by hand. I would have split that pour down the middle and poured a ten foot wide strip, then gone back and poured another ten feet next to it. You need a control joint there anyway. I don't think the concrete company is going to take any blame on this one, they may have suggested the mix you used, but ultimately it was your call to use it, or go with something else. Just my opinion, but I have poured a lot of concrete slabs.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
SteveB(wi)

09-18-2005 21:03:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
A reputable concrete company will not "add" anything that the customer did not request. They"ll give you what you order or ask for nothing more or less. No driver should add water to any load unless the customer tells him to. It"s a CYA thing on their part. The load ticket will always show the mix and any water, CaCL, or other addmix added at the customer request. It should also show time in and out. Around here they allow 10-15 min a yard, anthing over that you get charged time - unless your a regular customer. Good luck on getting anything out of the ready mix Co. They will probably have covered all their bases based on your info.

In "03 I did my drive 80X20, 5" thick, 3000# mix, 7%air entrained. WE had 5 guys - 2 experienced finishers and 3 guys who"ve done it and can take orders. First truck at 7AM, miller time by Noon. The concrete including a 20X28 parking slab and 10"R ¼ circle walk poured the week before cost me almost $5K alone. that was with the extra charge for Saturday delivery.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
R.M. In AL.

09-18-2005 18:27:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
The 4500 mix is ok but not really needed.If it set in the truck 1 1/2 hrs thats not good.You may haved ordered them too close.Most plants will send like 5 yards and you can radio for the next load when you get about half empty or somthing like that.Adding water is not good after you once get the mix right..You still can add a topping to it but every time you go out you will look at it and cringe.Its a bad feeling.I have been there.Good Luck R.M.In AL.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Charles (in GA)

09-18-2005 12:56:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
Around here, almost everything is done with 3000 psi commercial grade cement. Also know as "six bag" cement. Standard 3000 is "five bag" cement. My shop/aircraft hangar floor is done with the 3000 commercial, about 4.5 inches thick with wire mesh and plastic on top of rock. We used metal keys to divide up the slab and help prevent shifing of the slab at joints.

You should have done about the same thing outside, 20x20 squares or thereabouts, and work one at a time. I'm convinced from watching pour and finich crews work that the very best money you can spend is on their services.

Charles

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Hobo,NC

09-18-2005 18:19:21




Report to Moderator
 DONT CLICK ON THIS LINK in reply to Charles (in GA), 09-18-2005 12:56:03  
went to yer pix and its loaded wirh POP UPS, STAY AWAY FROM THIS



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave Sherburne,NY

09-19-2005 16:51:32




Report to Moderator
 Testing my popup stopper works great in reply to Hobo,NC, 09-18-2005 18:19:21  
Clicked on the site to test my popup stopper
NO POPUPS works great , you need to use Mozilla
Firefox as your web browser.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rick H. Ga.

09-18-2005 10:02:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
I have poured a little concrete for myself over the years. One thing I have learned is that it is hard work and you have to work fast (or it will set up before it is finished, as you found out).

One thing I always do is to have the concrete truck driver to water the mix down real thin so I have a little additional time to work it. Also, another trick is to put plastic on the form floor to prevent the ground from soaking up the water and, thus, reducing set time.

I really don't think the stronger 4500 mix means it sets faster than a lesser stringth. But, I could be wrong.

Also, you could have partitioned off small sections like 20x10 or 20x20 at the most and work that area before you pour the next.

I can't imagine pouring a 20x85 continuous pad. That is a lot concrete to work up, even with several helpers. (This size may be OK for a prefessinal concrete crew.)

I suppose you could contact the manager at the concrete company and present your argument and see if they are willing to offer any consessions.

Rick

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rob

09-18-2005 08:52:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to RoNofohio, 09-18-2005 08:44:11  
I hope you get your answers. I don"t know why a guy would want quickset or any thing out of the ordinary for the pad or driveway you describe.
You should give that one estimator a call. He should have answers for you and...he should know of your experience and perhaps he will reconsider his recomendations.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dale Work

09-18-2005 13:32:16




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to Rob, 09-18-2005 08:52:18  
There is more than one way to achieve 4500 PSI strength concrete. One is to add more cement to the mix, another is to add a plasticizer, which will break sown the surface tension in the water and allow it to do a more thorough job of using what cement is in the mix, therefore making for stronger concrete. When you use more cement the mix gets hot quicker, which means it will set up more quickly. Asking the driver to keep adding water isn't a good thing to do either because more water will weaken the end product. Ready mix companies usually don't give warnings for stuff like this bacause they think their customers already know it. After all why would someone ask for high strength concrete is he didn't know what he was doing, which is true for the most part but sad to say, not always. Sorry you had a hard time. This was a hard and expensive lesson for you. Dale

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gahorN

09-18-2005 20:59:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to Dale Work, 09-18-2005 13:32:16  
If you anticipate a need for longer working times,...the best thing is to tell the concrete supplier. They can add retardant to extend the working time and slow the set up. Adding excessive water will weaken the concrete.

When I built my hangar (50 X 50 steel bldg with 16' eaves, made of I-beams, etc., 12/2 sloped roof, etc. ...all my own design) I needed a slab poured. I originally thought I could get a couple of buddies over to help me, but when I talked to the local gravel company (I needed to buy fill because the site was not level...it was 26" lower at the rear of the bldg than the front)....the driver of the first delivery truck began to laugh...and gave me the business card of a local crew which normally poured/worked slabs for local homebuilders. His son was one of them. They were between jobs and gave me a break on the price. (Or so they said.) Anyway, when it was all over,....I was so glad that guy laughed and gave me that business card. That crew laid out the work-site, put up the batter-boards, set it level with a sextant, set up forms, had 15 loads of crushed granite gravel delivered, and compacted it with their "bobcat" miniature dozer, laid all the steel re-bar, set out the proper reinforced perimeter walls, and the reinforced cross-beam channels (to strengthen the entire slab). The slab was to be a 4.5" general thickness, with 10" walls/cross-beams 24" deep, reinforced with 5/8" rebar. The general floor was reinforced with 3/8" rebar. They went home after an entire two days setting up, before they called for the concrete. They used six-sack concrete. The trucks arrived starting at 5AM on the third day, and by noon, the pour was over. I'd specified a drain in the center, and the plumbing was pre-laid before the pour, and the crew used long boards with one end at the outer perimeter and the inner end at the drain to "level" it such that the center drain was one-inch lower than the outer edges. They'd also set the weld-plates I'd had the local metal/welding shop build up, in the proper places during the pour. (This is a welded up structure rather than a pre-engineered bolt-together, and the uprights of the bldg are welded to plates anchored/set in the concrete.)

The crew of 4 workers settled the aggregate by hand with a "walker" type shaker, then used a vibrator to shake out the bubbles/voids, etc. Then a jitterbug was used to bring it to a near final grade. By 5 PM they were using a rotary finisher (like a floor polisher with spatulas instead of brushes, to give a satin finish.) By 6:30 or so, they were opening cold beer and admiring the work. They told me to stay off it for 48 hours and not to water it. They came back the next day and poured by sloping apron with leads up to the front door opening. (It was 12' X 44', and has a brushed finish.) The next day, they came back after they got off their regular job about 20 miles away and took up their forms. They told me I could walk on it but to keep heavy equipment off it for 28 days. The total slab costs were approx. $9K. Two weeks later, Mueller Steel Bldgs delivered all my materials. I hired some off work erectors who welded up my main structure, including the girts and purlins, over a 4 week period on their off weekends. They also installed about 2/3d's of my sheet metal and insulation. Total labor came to slightly more than $1200. By this time, I'd gotten most of the education to finish the job with a buddy or two. We put up the skin/insulation on the last two walls, and all the roof. Two years later, my cousin (professional welder) and I built an overhead door of my own design. It's a rigid door made of 2 X 6 rect. tubing, measureing 44' wide by 14' tall. It's covered with insulation and more R panel, just like the rest of the bldg. The top, bottom, and ends are weatherstipped with EPDM I purchased in 14" widths, in the lengths necessary for the door. (two 44' and two 14') Folded in half and inserted below the R panel before the final screws are installed. When raised to the overhead, level position, the door is half inside and half outside the bldg. (Makes a great awning to watch the rain while enjoying a beer with my labrador.) It's raised/lowered using a $350 boat lift motor/gear. Takes 3 minutes to go full open or full closed with the flick of a switch. I wanted my own door design because I didn't like the commercial doors available for various reasons, (like they cannot be operated in wind) and also didn't care for their costs. (My door can be operated in any wind without adverse effects, and I lose only the thickness of my door, 8-inches, from the headroom.) I also have a personel door on the side of the bldg. facing my home. I have 4, vertical, opaque light-panels installed in the upper areas of the east and west walls for ambient lighting. (I didn't want such panels in the roof where they would be susceptible to hail damage and rain leaks.) Total costs of my completed hangar came to less than $26K, while virtually identical (but un-insulated) hangars at the local fly in community were costing $84K and up, with much less desireable doors (IMHO). My electrical work is not yet finished. I expect to finish it myself this year for about $600 in materials. I plan 200 Amp service for overhead lighting, wall outlets, 240 volt service for my welder and air compressor, etc. Sorry for the long post, but thought the info might be useful for planning purposes for others. Large project concrete work is best left
for those who know how and have the tools and experience. I almost messed up by trying it myself.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gahorN

09-18-2005 21:07:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: OT. Concrete woes in reply to gahorN, 09-18-2005 20:59:50  
Sorry for the typo... but my labor for the help initially welding up my bldg structure and 2 walls was $3200...not $1200.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy