machine shop report - advice?

First, Brian knows a lot about 8Ns. He asked me things like if it was the type with the .090 sleeves or not, things like that, and was clearly real familiar with them and their specs. When I said that the valve guides were one-piece, he casually said, "Well, they just don't make the two-piece guides any more anyway; they're obsolete. So you put in a one-piece no matter." He wasn't being critical or anything, he was just knowledgeable about it and telling me it wasn't a big deal. He said things like the block surface hardly ever needs to be resurfaced, but the head often does because it's thinner so it warps more frequently.

There was a gorgeous '68 Mustang in the shop that he had just put a 471 engine and a manual transmission in. He said (related to a different conversation) that he does a lot of race cars where he puts in parts that "weren't meant to be in there originally" and so he "just works things on the machines so they'll fit and work well."

He said that it's ok for me to be there to watch how he does it when he magnafluxes the block and stuff. He seemed to think it was a little odd I wanted to see what it was like, but it wasn't a problem to him.

He prefers to buy the parts himself. He charges an additional 20% for labor if a customer buys their own parts. He gets parts from a place called Endurance, and he says he only gets new parts, never rebuilt. (This is how the race car thing came up, is I asked if what I had heard was true, that sometimes the new parts aren't quite made right and they don't fit well. He was explaining that he can get them to work, although it's generally not a problem.)

Here is the price list he gave me (not all of it, but enough to give you an idea):
clean and check head -- $40
resurface head -- $45
clean block -- $150 (he bakes it in a special, very hot oven and then dips it; I don't have to do anything to it first, like remove paint)
flux block -- $40
grind valves and seats -- $105
check rods -- $5 per rod
resize rods -- $10 per rod
getting out the broken head bolts -- $25 per bolt

What do you guys think? Have I found a good shop, or is he too expensive, or should I find one that uses different parts? I know I will have to make the final decision, but I would appreciate your input since you ALL have so much more experience than I do in selecting and using a machine shop (since I have NONE! LOL).

Dawn

Jim

1) Block is completely disassembled, expansion plugs, oil gallery plugs, sleeves, etc. removed.

2) Machinists's helper (minimum wage) submerges block in a vat of caustic liquid heated to about 200F.

3) Machinist and helper go home to bed.

4) Two days later helper fishes block out of tank and hoses it down with clean water.

5) Helper loads block into shot blast cabinet and proceeds to scour exterior and interior with a hail of compressed air propelled shot.

6) Helper removes block from cabinet and blows high pressure compressed air through all internal passages and cavities. Washes block with soapy water.

7) Block is now ready for the attention of the machinist ;-)

And just as a data point when you start collecting estimates a NEW short block including new pistons, rings, crank, valves, lifters, etc can be purchased outright for $2600. A factory remanufactured short blcok from the same source is $2100. But then what fun is that ;-)

TOH

One approach is to simply ask for a total price for a complete short block rebuild and a list of what work and parts are included in that price. With most shops piece work prices are often way more than a package job.

HTH,

TOH

TOH

My 2 cents

On the other hand, professional machine shop mechanics provide a highly skilled service and their work is not cheap.

If I were you, Dawn, I would at least get other bids/prices on your project Arthur. Write up a list of the exact services you want and go from there.

HTH. Rick

Now, this is on a NAA engine, so some of the things I got done will not apply to your 8N - plus I had some nasty corrosion on the surface of the block that had to be fixed. Also, he did not break every item out individually, but does have each item listed out. Here is what I paid: Deck block - $70, surface flywheel (you will not need this probably) - $38, Remove/Replace valve guides and hone to size, Magna-Flux block and head, Vat and wash block (actually 2 dips and 3 pressure wash cycles - it was bad), Install freeze plugs, Remove/Replace sleeves and Plateau hone, R&R pistons on rods, size rods, Install piston rings and size, R&R rod pin bushings and hone to size, Valve job, Mill head surface (you do not really want to do this probably), Crankshaft polish and camfer oil holes - $750. Now, he removed and replaced my supplied starter ring on the flywheel, drilled out a bolt that I snapped a EZ-Out in, and helicoiled the hole back to the original size, new rod nuts, sleeved the valve guides, three freeze plugs, coated and sealed the engine block - FREE. All said and done it was $858, I bought a $350 FULL complete rebuild kit and gave the machine shop the rod bushings, piston rings, sleeves, pistons, valves and guides, and maybe a few other items, then I just put it all back together at home.

I had to spend a little more than normal because of the condition of my engine, but he did an EXCELLENT job and when I double checked his work with plastiguage it was dead on. He found the specs for clearances himself, and could also get the rebuild kit if I needed him to. He worked out of his shop behind his house, so was not eager to have me drop by and "watch" - some guys are just like that.

Maybe your machinist does not want to get crap parts that he will be liable for, but charging 20% for you to provide quality parts seems out of line. Bottom line - your gut will usually tell you if this shop is the one - what does your gut tell you?

Good luck,
Dan

One thing not mentioned in your prices was a break for bringing the parts in already dissassembled. The shop I used to use had VERY different pricing for people who just brought in a set of heads or a bare block to be reworked. It saves them a BUNCH of labor if you do most of the wrench turning yourself, so it should have been mentioned in the prices he quoted.

The guy with the "68 stang should be paying on a totally different scale than you since it sounds like they are doing a turn-key job on that one, and there is a HUGE difference in the amount of precision necessary for your tractor motor.

Resurface Head and Block: $ 85.00
Replace valves and valve job: $60.00
Install sleeves,cam,rebuild oil pump, and crank shaft: $50.00
Flux block & head $25.00
Power cylinder hone: $30.00
Jet hot clean head and block $65.00
Hazardous waste disposal $15.00
Grind crank .10 under: $125.00
New expansion plugs and installed $1.44
Complete engine kit $376.00

You'll have to rebuild the carburetor and govenor, if necessary, replace the water pump, etc. His price seems consistent with or a little less than what you'd pay to a good machinist around these parts.

You mainly want a good machinist rather than just cheap so you won't be doing a repeat. You might check some of Dan's old post to see what he paid for rustbucket's machine work. I think he was well satisfied. Altogether, it doesn't sound bad to me.