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OT Bio-Diesel

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Phil (upsNY)

03-08-2006 09:31:50




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This is off topic but I figured it wouldn’t hurt asking here. I’m a senior in high school and I’m doing a final exhibition project. My project is on bio-diesel and how it is better for multiple reasons. I know all the facts about it but I was hoping if I could get anyone's opinion on it and what they think of bio-diesel.

Email is open…
Thanks Phil




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chris cogburn

03-09-2006 13:30:11




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to Phil (upsNY), 03-08-2006 09:31:50  
Fantastic information here! I had no idea bio-fuels were being used in such 'large scale' local operations; I figured it was mostly just wackos with stills in their backyards. No offense intended...

There are actually bacteria that eat petro-products also, they're just not as common as the bio types. Pseudomonus oliovorans (sp?) is the one I'm familiar with, it is the one that makes machine tool coolant smell so vile. It digests the petro-products in the coolant; the waste products are predictably unpleasant. I think it is sprayed onto big oil spills as well, especially in the open ocean.

Thanks for the great info!

c.

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Sawmill Rick

03-08-2006 18:54:09




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to Phil (upsNY), 03-08-2006 09:31:50  
Hi Phil,
If corn is about $80.00 a ton gas prices will have to go over $4.00 a gallon to start thinking about making a profit. I wonder how F85 makes anyone money, and how much it is being substadized. I also share Farmer Dawns concerns. As soon as there is real money to be had, I am sure there will be large corporate control. Hell, knowing the current state I would not be suprised if we shipped grain to another country for next to nothing, allowed another country process it, and had to buy the product back at a small fortune!

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jhaa_lives

03-09-2006 04:54:44




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to Sawmill Rick, 03-08-2006 18:54:09  
Lots of subsidizing is necessary right now. They are also claiming that it is more environmentally friendly... it's an "oxygenated additive" that prevents NOX and SOX emissions. While that is true... it increases other emissions.

The countries in the world that don't produce enough food to feed themselves are not that interested in this technology. Can't imagine why.

Politicians keep spinning the lies, while soldiers keep doing or dieing.

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TheOldHokie

03-08-2006 13:01:16




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to Phil (upsNY), 03-08-2006 09:31:50  
Well after being trapped in the right lane for about 2 miles going up a long grade behind a Mercedes burning BD I felt like I'd been held hostage in the french fryer for a month. Glycerol not withstanding the odor is a real negative.

TOH



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jhaa_lives

03-08-2006 10:41:38




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to Phil (upsNY), 03-08-2006 09:31:50  
I have an opinion. I did my engineering doctoral work on a topic related to biodiesel.

The reality: The price of oil will remain at a level that supports a diesel price less than what it costs to make biodiesel. Alternatively this is also applied to bioethanol.

The conversion of the oil triglyceride into the fatty acid esters is nearly 100%, based upon the conversion of the fatty acid. New techniques are constantly foudn that decrease the energy needed to perform this conversion, and also increase the efficiency of the utilization of the other reactants (i.e. methanol and acid).

However, NO ONE is turning the byproduct glycerol into a usefull (i.e. can make a profit) product. Currently, crude and purified glycerol is a "no profit" business because their are numerous sources and very few markets.

Find a good use (i.e. market) for the glycerol byproduct from the manufacture and that will probably generate enough of a profit margin to make biodiesel economically attractive.

I come from farming family. The price of nearly everything has risen over the last several decades. However, the price of bulk crops has not seen this increase. Find a way to turn biodiesel into a money making venture, and you'll take power (and $'s) out of the large petrochemical companies (i.e. Shell, Exon, etc...) and put it into the hands of the small companies, co-op's, and farmers.

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FarmerDawn

03-08-2006 14:14:49




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to jhaa_lives, 03-08-2006 10:41:38  
Do you think the co-ops and small farmers will be able to keep this out of the hands of "big agri-business" in this case? That's an actual question, not a challenge. I'd really like to know what you think about that side of it, and why.



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jhaa_lives

03-09-2006 04:43:15




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to FarmerDawn, 03-08-2006 14:14:49  
Problem with converting oil into gas and diesel is it takes BIG factories with lots of control equipment. It is a very dangerous thing to do. It operates optimal at very large scales, and the people in the oil transport business don't sell barrels at a time, they sell tankers at a time. Interpret these statements as "it is nearly impossible to enter into the oil refinery business". They have a monopoly.

I have seen operate a trans-esterification unit (i.e. a bio-diesel maker), operating at 99.9% conversion efficiency (on the fatty acid) that could sit easily in the back of a 1/2 ton pickup. At this size, and with this operating efficiency you could make about a gallon a minute. The process was scalable to larger scale as well. Very small chance of fires / explosiones / etc... due to the nature of the chemicals being used and how they are processed... with methanol being the worst.

In the mid west their are lots of co-ops producing bio-ethanol that are set up around the corn producing areas. It is cheaper to convert it into ethanol localy at small conversion centers then transport the ethanol to the blending stations where they mix it with the gas. This is not entirely the same with bio-diesel, as the soybeans (or rapeseed or cotton seed or sunflower seed or whatever) must first be extracted to remove the oil from the seed. This extraction is currently being done at... you guessed it... big business. However, they are producing edible grade vegetable oil. That quality (and the processing pains that go along with it) is not necessary for material that will ultimately be burned in diesel engines. Additionally they typically use the remaining seed protein for food or feed products, and if it's food products, the quality must be kept quite high. However, if your doing the oil extraction at a small co-op in nowhere Missouri, then all you have to do is make the remaining seed quality good enough for cattle feed. Once again, feed for cattle can be of a lower quality than feed for humans. Farmers need Diesel to run their tractors and trucks, etc... They farmer gives their seed to the co-op, the co-op gives them back a certain amount of processed seed and biodiesel. The co-op sells a little of the processed seed and diesel to pay for operating costs. Money is saved by not having to transport the raw materials and the final products... except from the farm to the co-op and back again.

Very wordy answer. So, in a word or two, Yes I think it can be kept small business.

But I've given all this time to the Pro's of this argument. Any good debator knows both sides of the argument. And here's the Con's.

If there is a major drop in production of soybeans one year, the prices go through the roof. The farmers don't sell any of their soybeans to the co-op, but instead sell them all to the grain processors. The co-op has no seeds this year, and the co-op has to lay off all employees and sell off capital. Business closed. The alternative is that the co-op has contracts with the farmers for a certain amount of seeds each year. That's fine, so the farmers grudgingly ship their seed to the co-op (which will make them less money) and the co-op realizes (with the help of their economic analysts) that the best way to make money this year is to sell their seeds to the grain processors and buy the farmers seeds and diesel... lay off the employees and wait till next year.

On year in Nebraska their was a huge corn crop (imagine that!). Farmers sold a lot of corn to the local bio-ethanol plant. Turns out the rest of the US had a lousy corn crop. The bio-ethanol plant sold all their corn for cash and made no bio-ethanol that year. It's all about $'s.

Now lets not mention the fact that all though it is POSSIBLE to run an engine on pure ethanol or bio-diesel... it's a bad idea. It is better to blend it with the petrochemical material. With bio-diesel you have the geling that occurrs at low temperatures which can be "lessened" by a blend with petrochemical diesel. You also have the bacterial growth that occurs in 100% biodiesel that can be minimized by blending with petrochemical diesel. Incidentally, barges going up and down the Mississippi will probably run 100% biodiesel (or close to it) one day, because when they have a spill or leak a bunch of their petrochemical fuel, it becomes an EPA / Coast Guard / DOH nightmare. If instead they had the biodiesel... it naturally degrades in a short matter of time, and no problem. Just add a little fertilizer to the spill and it goes away. Nature knows how to fix itself.

All this information and $2.50 will buy you a cup of coffee.

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Sawmill

03-09-2006 14:37:16




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to jhaa_lives, 03-09-2006 04:43:15  
I found this information very interesting! Worth far more than a cup of coffee. I really enjoy it when someone gives the real story on an issue and presents both sides. Like most of our modern problems, this one appears to be way complex but it is great to get an insight into what is going on. Thanks
Sawmill Rick



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Scott#3

03-09-2006 10:02:34




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to jhaa_lives, 03-09-2006 04:43:15  
Actually, there are quite a few people running 100% biodiesel in numerous different vehicles. Gelling can be a problem in some areas, but is fairly easy to eliminate with commercially available products (heated filters, etc). Compatibility with rubber products (seals, o rings, hose) is a bigger issue that is only slowly being addressed by engine manufacturers, most will only certify them to run on B5, or B20 at most. Until manufacturers have a reason to perform further testing, and certify engines to run on B100, large scale use will not happen.
Anyone who is homebrewing probably doesn't mind a bit.

Scott

Ford diesel running on WVO.

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FarmerDawn

03-09-2006 07:15:21




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to jhaa_lives, 03-09-2006 04:43:15  
THANK you for writing such a considered and thorough response!!!! I am going to save this, just as general information and also as a sort of "hopeful vision" for the future. --Dawn



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Me 2

03-08-2006 11:46:49




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 Re: OT Bio-Diesel in reply to jhaa_lives, 03-08-2006 10:41:38  
This has also been my opinion, but not very well backed up with facts... Is your thesis available? Can I get a copy? I would like one.. Email open Phd ME 2...



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