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9N ignition question

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Paul J

04-02-2006 07:04:01




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I have a 1942 9N that I would like to convert to 12 volts. I plan on leaving the same generator in it and using a heavy duty diode cutout that I can hide under the hood somewhere. I’ve done this before. The original cutout in time will not handle the higher voltage. My question is do the new 12 volt coils they sell work on a positive ground system? Or, is there just a resistor I can put in to cut down the voltage going to the original 6 volt coil and would it go in with the original resistor or replace the original resistor? I am assuming that I need to leave it a positive ground system because I am using the same generator. Or is there a way to make the generator a negative ground? It’s a 1 wire generator with a cutout. I am trying to leave the original look of the tractor but have the benefits of a 12 volt system. Please don’t write about how I should leave it 6 volts. I’m not trying to start a big debate about 6 volt verses 12 volt so no politics please. Just trying to fix my tractor.
Thank You,
Paul

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NEsota

04-02-2006 11:33:12




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Paul J, 04-02-2006 07:04:01  
Paul J: I was in electronics school when JFK was elected and have more to learn about the subject than I now know. What Dell says about electronics (and probably any thing else) you can take to the bank. If he and this forum had been around fifty years ago they would have saved me some money. My 8N is 6 volts and will stay that way as long as batteries are available for it. That said, I think that I have the Falcon generator Dell talks about.

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Dell (WA)

04-02-2006 10:09:04




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Paul J, 04-02-2006 07:04:01  
Paul..... ....yes, it is true, the 3rd-brush 1-terminal 6-volt genny has an OPEN-CIRCUIT volts output in excess of 12-volts (I've read as high as 17-volts) ...but... the minute you LOAD the genny output with a BATTERY, (or ignition coil) it sucks the volts down to about 7 1/2-volts. You do know what open-circuit means don't you? It means NOTHING CONNECTED. nada, zip, understand?

Generator polarity depends upon battery polarity and is determined by POLARIZING both the mechanical cutt-outt electro-magnetic core and the genny electro-magnetic FIELD. This is "polarizing" is auto-magicically accomplished by arc-sparking the 2-terminal cutt-outt connections together (tractor OFF). A diode used as a 1-way switch (which is what the cutt-outt is) does NOT need polarizing, it just needs to be correctly wired to begin with. Incorrectly connected, it will drain yer battery and NOT CHARGE yer battery.

The cutt-outt relay is NOT voltage sensitive, it is operated by electo-magnetic field strength which is a direct function of current (amps) flow. But it is also electro-magnetic polarity sensitive which is how and why it connects and disconnects the genny from the battery. Howsomevers; 12-volts on yer cutt-outt will burn-out the 6-volts electro-magnetic coil.

The OEM 6-volt squarecan ignition coil has a mandatory requirement for the "infamous ballast resistor". To continue to use the OEM 6-volt coil requires BOTH the ballast resistor AND a 12-to-6 volt converting resistor. 8NE-10306 is one of many that is available.

FYI...for a while after the early 8N's, Ford offered a 6-volt, 3-wire genny conversion kit. But iff'n you want a roundbarrel 12-volt genny look, look for a Ford Falcon 12-volt genny and matching squarecan voltage regulator.

You write..... ."Please don’t write about how I should leave it 6 volts. I’m not trying to start a big debate about 6 volt verses 12 volt so no politics please"..... ...guess what? I don't care, 6 or 12-volts, but you are dangerously ill-informed about electrical circuit theory..... ...respectfully, Dell, a 12-volt advocate for the right reasons and you ain't gott the right reason.

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Bob

04-02-2006 11:47:29




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Dell (WA), 04-02-2006 10:09:04  
Gotta disagree on ONE point, DELL.

You state:

"The cutt-outt relay is NOT voltage sensitive, it is operated by electo-magnetic field strength which is a direct function of current (amps) flow. But it is also electro-magnetic polarity sensitive which is how and why it connects and disconnects the genny from the battery. Howsomevers; 12-volts on yer cutt-outt will burn-out the 6-volts electro-magnetic coil."

In fact, the cutout relay IS voltage sensitive, and if you were to look at old-time electrical shop data sheets for these things (when people actually FIXED them), there are very specific cut-in voltage "specs" for these cutouts. This voltage spec is set by adjusting the spring tension, and the gap between the moveable arm in the cutout and the coil's polepiece.

A specific voltage level causes them to close "cut in", and a drop in voltage, combined with the magnetic field reversal that occurs when the current flow reverses when the generator stops charging, and, instead, acts as a drain on the battery, causes them to "cut out". (There are TWO separate windings in the cutout... a voltage winding and a current winding.)

And, cutouts are not really polarity sensitive. MOST cutouts are content to work at either polarity. However, it is the REVERSAL of the magnetic field that occurs when the CURRENT flow though the cutout reverses that allows them to unlatch, and "cut out".

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Dell (WA)

04-02-2006 13:08:06




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Bob, 04-02-2006 11:47:29  
Bob..... ..what you say is absolutely true. I had neather time nor inclination to give Paul a "full" technical desertation on how a cutt-outt relay works. He has so many other miss-understandings of how electrical systems work, he would completely miss yer fine explaination.

Basically, his entire premise is full of hooie. Iff'n yer gonnna convert to 12-volts, do it right the first time. Don't be stealthy when you don't understand electricity..... ...respectfully, Dell

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John Franklin

04-02-2006 16:50:13




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Dell (WA), 04-02-2006 13:08:06  
Boy that makes Paul feel special.

John



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Mike Hunt

04-02-2006 17:59:48




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to John Franklin, 04-02-2006 16:50:13  
Paul could always surf over to the N Tracter Club and get a truly respectful answer to his question, instead of being verbally abused by an egotistical jerk who thinks that just because he signs off "respectfully", the truly rude crap he spouted off is negated.



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Paul J

04-02-2006 18:18:07




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Mike Hunt, 04-02-2006 17:59:48  
I think I’m gonna go buy a 6 volt battery now. Talk to ya all when I get back.
“Respectfully",
Paul



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maplehillfrm,pat

04-02-2006 10:22:07




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Dell (WA), 04-02-2006 10:09:04  
see like I said I can learn somethig new everyday, I just learned I like my 6 volt system and I will leave them all that way {which I never had any plans on changing anyway} because I think I understand at least that much,have a good one pat



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maplehillfrm,pat

04-02-2006 07:46:44




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Paul J, 04-02-2006 07:04:01  
I am not exactly sure,.but I dont think the genny really cares whether it is pos or neg ground as long as it knows which way it is charging with polorizing,I THINK the positive grd was only to give the 6 volts a little more hotter juice,, how are you going to get 12 volts out of a 6 volt genny though,, even with a third brush turned all the way up you arent coming close to 14+ volts needed to recharge a 12 volt battery,, maybe I am missing something, someone else will chime in with a better answer I am sure,good luck,pat

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Paul J

04-02-2006 09:39:35




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to maplehillfrm,pat, 04-02-2006 07:46:44  
The generator puts out more than enough voltage (around 18 at its peak), the battery works as the regulator. I have done this with my 1929 chevy and my neighbor has done it on Model A's and a packard. Works great but you need to change the cutout to a heavy duty diode type. My real question is does it mater if you run a new front mount 12 volt coil with a negative ground system?
Paul



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dan hill

04-02-2006 16:44:06




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Paul J, 04-02-2006 09:39:35  
The 6v ford generator will throw solder and end up with shorted turns if you run it over 8 volts.As the voltage climbs the wattage and heat produced increases.The voltage winding in the cutout will overheat at 14 volts.The 600 series generator has no fan or vent holes. I cant remember the 8n generator because all the 8n tractors Ive seen latley have been turkeyed to 12 volts.I was looking at a battery for my sawmill and noticed 6 new 6 V batteries on the rack, all with a march 06 mfg date.Price was 30.00.So much for the fable about old mfg batteries and shortages.

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maplehillfrm,pat

04-02-2006 10:14:03




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 Re: 9N ignition question in reply to Paul J, 04-02-2006 09:39:35  
hey paul, thats good info to know, see I can learn something new everyday, electrics really isnt my cup of tea,have a great day,pat



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