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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum

Ignition Help?

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Alan R

04-27-2006 06:11:56

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Haven't had much time to work on the 8N lately, but wanted to ask what to check next in my ignition system. The problem is that the only way I can get the starter to turn is to jump directly from the battery (neg) terminal to the small terminal on the solenoid. I do have current at the switch and I have cleaned up all connections at the solenoid and battery ground. The terminal block is broken in half and the replacement should be here today. What should I check next and since I don't know much about electrical systems, how should I check it (I do have a basic multimeter for testing). Thanks for any help/advice.

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dave guest

04-27-2006 19:58:42

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:11:56

Gotta be in neutral, too!!!

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ClayZ

04-27-2006 08:57:02

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:11:56

Guys -

Had to replace the coil on my Ford Jubilee today. It was converted from 6v to 12v some time ago - and the 12v coil says it needs an external resistor - which I don't know that it EVER had.

Would burning up the points/condenser be the only result? The coil seems to get near red-hot and it's the 3rd one I've put on the tractor.

Without that resistor - what else am I going to fry?

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Dell (WA)

04-27-2006 10:36:11

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to ClayZ, 04-27-2006 08:57:02

Alan..... ...gitta real 12-volt ignition coil, needs NO RESISTOR. NAPA IC-14 SB is just $15 (cheap) and works better'n them 12-volt coils that are really 6-volt coils that need dropping resistors. Them 12-volt coils need special switching circuits, eather ignition switch or starter solenoid. The IC-14 also has hotter sparkies than the other type of ignition coils.

Ignition points and condensers don't care 6-or-12 volts. But the coil does care. HOT COIL means yer runnin' a 6-volt coil on 12-volts and no wonder you are replacing the melted coil..... ...Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

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Bob

04-27-2006 09:49:53

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to ClayZ, 04-27-2006 08:57:02

Get a ballast resistor, it will be in the 1.6 to 1.8 Ohm range. Your coil will cool down, and you coil and points will last longer.

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ClayZ

04-27-2006 11:21:22

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Bob, 04-27-2006 09:49:53

Thanks guys -

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DavidO

04-27-2006 06:20:27

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:11:56

That's quite a question. A full course on troubleshooting automotive electrical systems is way beyond the scope of a single post or two. Tell me first what year model 8N you have. If you do not know, then tell me whether you have a front mounted distributor or a side mounted distributor. Then tell me whether you have a 6V positive ground system or a converted 12V negative ground system. (Do you have a generator or an alternator)? Then we can start with what to check.

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Alan R

04-27-2006 06:29:40

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to DavidO, 04-27-2006 06:20:27

Let's see...it's a '52 8N with 6V pos ground system (generator) and side mount distributor. I have not started the tractor since buying it last year (long story). I replaced points, plugs, coil, solenoid and battery after purchase, but before attempting to start it found the engine was frozen. Now after finally getting the engine sorted out, am trying to start it for the first time. I like mechanical work, but hate electrical work. Don't know why. Should be a very simple system on these tractors, but it is still a bit mysterious to me how it works.

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dan hill

04-27-2006 15:43:48

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:29:40

I learned the basics of ignition when I was 12 years old.It amazes me that adult men cannot understand how a ford tractor ignition works.I asked my dad, how does this work..Friends and I had a cut down Model A that we wanted to get running.

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Bob

04-27-2006 16:56:12

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to dan hill, 04-27-2006 15:43:48

Dan,

That's a bit CAUSTIC, but true!

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dan hill

05-02-2006 03:55:17

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Bob, 04-27-2006 16:56:12

Still cant understand why so many tractor owners try to get tractors running without any basic knowledge of ignition.There are plenty of books available to read about the subject.My dad showed us how to take the coil wire out of the As dist cap and place the end of wire with in 1/4 inch of the cyl head.He said if the points were open short across them with the key on you should get a spark when you removed the screwdriver.If the points were closed you should get a spark when you opened them with a screwdriver.He said condensers didnt give much trouble.Coils went bad sometimes but not often on the model A.Also we were taught to keep the points clean and gapped.A folded business card or match book cover was used to set the point cap.I was working on radios already so ignition was no problem.My friends picked up this Knowledge quickly.Two of them have restored model As now 55 years later.You may call it caustic,I call it being direct.My dad would say,Thats the wrong way,do it this way.

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AlanR

04-28-2006 05:03:56

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Bob, 04-27-2006 16:56:12

By 12 years old, I was helping my Dad work on those funny little foreign sports cars (Triumphs, Healeys, Alfas, Sunbeams, etc). While I got to be a fairly competent wrench, and eventually had to deal with the mysterious and nefarious electrical systems of Joseph Lucas (otherwise known as the Prince of Darkness) I have never felt as comfortable working on electrical systems as on the rest of the vehicles. Perhaps if I had started with American cars things would have turned out differently. To each his own.

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DavidO

04-27-2006 07:48:37

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:29:40

OK, great answer. Now we can do some work. We have a 52 8N with the original electrical system and a broken ballast resistor. You know, of course, that the broken resistor will have to be replaced before you run the tractor for any length of time. I am going to post a link to a wiring diagram so you will have something to look at as you work. Your tractor should be the third one as you scroll down the page. I am going to start by making some assumptions and you correct me when I guess wrong. You have the correct solenoid. (Be sure that the transmission is in neutral before doing this test)When you put a jumper wire from the small terminal on the solenoid to ground, the engine turns over. You installed the tune up parts correctly. By the way the starter system and the ignition system operate independantly. That is to say, you do not have to have the key on to make the starter turn the engine over.Check to be sure that you have OIL in the engine. Now IF you are the kind of guy who can follow instructions and you feel confident that you understand everything, you can go ahead and try to start the engine. MAKE SURE THAT THE TRANSMISSION IS IN NEUTRAL. DO NOT LET THE ENGINE RUN FOR MORE THAN A MINUTE OR SO WITH THE RESISTOR JUMPERED OR YOU COULD RUIN THE COIL. Put a jumper wire across the broken resistor OR run a jumper from the ignition switch "hot" side directly to the "-" side of the coil. Make sure that you have fuel and that it is turned on. NOW,turn the key on, and, after you make sure that the transmission is in neutral, pull the choke out all the way, put the throttle about half way down and jumper the small terminal on the solenoid to ground. EURIKA !!! It is running isn't it. Turn it off and get a replacement for the broken resistor. Good Luck and please post your results.

Dave

Wiring Diagrams

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BillM (OH)

04-27-2006 23:40:41

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to DavidO, 04-27-2006 07:48:37

The wiring diagram above shows light circuit going through ignition switch - bad. Should run light circuit from terminal block, as ignition switch will not last long passing lighting current.

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Alan R

04-27-2006 08:29:16

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to DavidO, 04-27-2006 07:48:37

Thanks much for the help. I won't be able to attempt this until this evening or tomorrow, but a couple of comments in the meantime. Is the "ballast resistor" the same thing as the "terminal block"? As for the solenoid, it is mounted on top of the starter and does have the small terminal that faces the block. When I jump this terminal to ground the engine does turn over. Does this prove it is the correct solenoid?

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DavidO....OOOOPS

04-27-2006 08:56:15

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 08:29:16

Sorry, it has been one of those days. I was thinking about my 48 8N and not your 52 8N when I mentioned the resistor. Your tractor does not have a resistor. The terminal block is just a place to tie the wires together. So forget what I said about the resistor and do the other stuff. I guess now that you may need to wait until you get the choke fixed. Hang in there. As you can see, others sometimes have a bad day too.

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Alan R

04-27-2006 11:24:21

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to DavidO....OOOOPS, 04-27-2006 08:56:15

No problem. I just can't wait to get this thing fired up! Of course then I'll find out what else needs attention. Oh well, one step at a time.

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Bob

04-27-2006 06:18:36

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:11:56

You have the wrong starter solenoid. If you had the correct (rather unusual) starter solenoid, it would engage by having it's little post grounded to the chassis (as the tranny-top starter switch does, rather than jumpered to the "BATT" terminal on the solenoid.

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Alan R

04-27-2006 06:23:25

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Bob, 04-27-2006 06:18:36

Wow! I did replace the solenoid along with other ignition parts and haven't started the tractor since, so that makes sense. How do I determine the correct solenoid for my '52 8N? Wait a minute, I do still have the old solenoid somewhere. I may put it back on as a test.

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Dell (WA)

04-27-2006 08:04:21

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 06:23:25

Alan..... ...the "correct" starter mounted solenoid is a 3-terminal solenoid mounted so the little middle terminal is facing the engine block. As explained, it is internally electrically "hot" and operated by grounding the little middle terminal by the BIG thumb switch by the tranny shifter..... ...Dell

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Alan R

04-27-2006 08:35:12

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Dell (WA), 04-27-2006 08:04:21

My solenoid matches your description. It is mounted on top of the starter, has 3 terminals with the center (small) terminal facing the block. Could the broken terminal block be the problem? I have one on order and it should arrive any day. Thanks for the help.

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Bob

04-27-2006 09:33:43

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Re: Ignition Help? in reply to Alan R, 04-27-2006 08:35:12

If there is power to the battery cable side of the solenoid, and the little terminal is facing towards the engine AND you short the little terminal to chassis ground, the solenoid should engage.

If it does not, it is either the wrong solenoid, or it is defective.

The solenoid will operate with just the battery cable connected to it... all the other wiring, junction block, etc., could be completely gone, yet the solenoid should operate, as with this system the starter will crank anytime the tranny-top button is depressed, even if the key is "OFF".

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