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8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update

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Alan R

05-18-2006 15:36:50




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I posted a while back about trying to get my "52 8N started for the first time after an engine rebuild. Everything seems good, but still won"t start. Have checked point gap at .025 and checked timing. Have verified spark at all 4 plugs. Have removed carb and checked several times for obvious problems (reset float level) shot carb cleaner through all passages). Have jumped from a 12V battery (tractor is original 6v). Have attempted pull start with no luck. Not firing at all. I have pulled plugs after attempting to start and they seem dry, so I believe there is a fuel supply issue. Thinking of buying another carb. Any suggestions or other ideas before I do? This is driving me nuts! Thanks for any advice/help.

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Bob Harvey

05-19-2006 09:03:15




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
Umm, how about valve clearances, are they adjusted properly?



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ZANE

05-19-2006 07:32:14




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
If you in fact have zero compression on all four cylinders it has to be the cam not installed correctly or the cam is marked wrong which is still not going to let it be installed right.

The only way to know is to take the valve tappet cover off and the spark plug out of #1 cylinder and watch as the engine is turned clock wise and see if the valves are both closed when the piston starts up on the compression stroke. You can tell when the piston starts up from the bottom of it's stroke by carefully threading a length of soft copper wire into the cylinder and feeling the movement of the piston. The spark plug hole is not over the piston but it can be felt if you hold your mouth just right.

You can feel the piston at the top of it's stroke eaiser and one of the valves should be closing and the other opening at the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke and you can determine if the valves are in time with the pistons this way.

If it is out of time you will have to take the front back off the engine and remove the timeing cover and correct the problem

Zane

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Alan R

05-19-2006 08:11:06




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to ZANE, 05-19-2006 07:32:14  
Thanks. I'll check it out this weekend. If I confirm the cam timing is off, how do I correct it?



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KennethTx

05-18-2006 19:11:41




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
It sounds like your cam gear has slipped on the shaft throwing off the valve timing. Verify that when No.1 piston is at TDC, both valves are closed and that they have remained closed on the upstroke to TDC. Be sure you are checking on compression stroke and not exhaust stroke.
If this checks out make an adapter and inject compressed air into a cylinder at TDC and listen for escaping air. This will tell you where compression is going.

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Alan R

05-19-2006 04:44:13




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to KennethTx, 05-18-2006 19:11:41  
Okay, sounds good, but what happens if (as I suspect) the valves do not close completely during the compression stroke? Guess I need to search up the engine timing procedure to see how to restore the correct relationship between the crank and cam, thus getting the valves to open and close at the right times. Thanks for the reply.



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Alan R

05-18-2006 16:54:27




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 Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
Took another look at verifying timing when #1 is on compression stroke. Couldn't feel any pressure. Tried pulling the bolt from the intake and checking for suction there...nothing. Now I'm really getting concerned, so I pull out the compression tester and check the #4 cylinder (easiest to reach)and get zero. Pull the #3 plug and check for compression...zero. This can't be possible! I could (maybe) understand low compression, but no compression? What's going on? This was an "in frame" rebuild (due to a blown head gasket) with new rod bearings, main bearings, rings, gaskets, etc. I did not remove the crank or cam. I have not fooled with the valves at all other than to check they were in good shape and opening and closing when rotating the crank during the rebuild. Seems unlikely they would all suddenly stick open? This is crazy. Other than telling me I should have pulled the engine for a complete teardown and rebuild (or replacement), what could have gone wrong and where do I go from here?

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Jetman8N

05-19-2006 06:27:57




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 16:54:27  
Alan,
I'd pull the #1 plug again, open the timing cover on the bell housing, rotate the engine until the timing mark is at "0". Pull the front valve adjustment cover off. If both valves aren't closed rotate the crank 360 degrees and verify the valves are closed. If they aren't, then the cam gear probably jumped a few teeth. May be one of the great fiber gears that give up a few teeth now and again. Will have to pull the front end off to replace it, but it's not a big job.
Jet

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FarmerDawn

05-18-2006 20:27:08




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 16:54:27  
Ohhhh nooooo, Alan. I can imagine how you must feel! Hang in there, fellow N-er!!! I know you can figure it out, and I bet it's something small and easy to fix!! Don't give up!!! --Dawn



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Alan R

05-19-2006 04:20:56




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to FarmerDawn, 05-18-2006 20:27:08  
Don't worry, I've come too far to give up now. Not out of ideas just a bit frustrated. Thanks for the encouragement.



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FarmerDawn

05-19-2006 05:28:33




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-19-2006 04:20:56  
Whew! Well, I will be thinking good thoughts for you today while you puzzle it out!



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TheOldHokie

05-18-2006 19:30:56




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 16:54:27  
If both valves are closed and the piston comes up you will get compression. If not you have leaking rings/leaking valves/leaking head gasket/etc. Given what you serviced I'd suspect the head gasket seal first. KISS.

TOH



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Alan R

05-19-2006 04:28:06




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-18-2006 19:30:56  
While I know the valves were opening and closing as I rotated the crankshaft during the rebuild, I do not know if they are opening and closing at the correct times. Is it possible that the engine "jumped time" or some other failure could have caused the valve timing to get this far off? The rings are new and the end gaps were okay and "staggered" around the piston during reassembly. The valves and seats were clean and undamaged. The head gasket surfaces were cleaned and the gasket was replaced and properly torqued. My bet is the timing is off between the crank and cam, although I have no idea what would have caused this unless it was that way when I purchased the tractor. Entirely possible since I bought the tractor as is with "may have a blown head gasket" according to previous owner.

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old

05-18-2006 18:15:38




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 16:54:27  
Did you prelube the cylinder/rings when you put in the new rings?? Also did you make sure the gap on the rings where off set from each other?? Had a guy come to me years ago and said he had liitle to no compression on a rebuild and I asked him about the rings and he told me he lined up all the gaps. He ending up pull all the pistons and resetting the rings. Just a guess and maybe an idea for you

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Alan R

05-19-2006 04:34:03




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to old, 05-18-2006 18:15:38  
Yes, I lubed the cylinders and rings when reinserting the pistons, and the ring gaps were staggered around each piston (none lining up with each other). I'm thinking (or hoping) the problem is with the engine timing. Need to look into what could cause the timing to be off such that the valves open during the compression stroke, thus no compression. May have been this way when I bought the tractor, but didn't know it since I had to replace the head gasket before attempting to start it. Thanks for the reply.

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old

05-19-2006 08:25:07




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 Re: Yikes! No compression??? in reply to Alan R, 05-19-2006 04:34:03  
Did you by chance have the govanor off?? If you did, did you maybe get the bolts mixed up. One is longer then the other and if put back in wrong you can brake the govanor gear and of course that would mess up the timing



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Dell (WA)

05-18-2006 16:07:22




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
Alan..... ...you do know that the sidemount 8N's flywheel is DOUBLE-TIME marked 180deg apart, don't you?

When you check yer timing, puttchur thumb OVER yer removed #1 sparkie hole to verify compression when hand-crankin' the engine for 4-BTDC. crank in clock-wize direction. Now check iff'n yer distributor rotor is pointin' at the #1 nipple. (doesn't haffta be zackly pointin' but close is better'n 90 or 180 out)

Now its decision time. Intime? Outta-time? Me? iff'n outtta time, I'd swapp the sparkie wires on yer 5-nipple dist-cap. Timing is still and always 1,2,4,3 CCW but #1-nipple can be 8o'clock, 9o'clock, 10o'clock, 1lo'clock (ROCK) or 3o'clock, 4o'clock (GITT THE IDEA?)

Or iff'n yer sphincterly challenged, you can remove yer distributor and re-install it so the rotor is pointing at the #1-nipple at 11o'clock while yer crankshaft is #1-compression position.

Iff'n yer IN-TIME, put-in NEW DRY SPARKPLUGS. Theres sumptin about modern no-lead gas that leaves INVISABLE contaminates that leak yer sparkies off and they won't sparkle..... ...respectfully, Dell

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Alan R

05-19-2006 07:26:35




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Dell (WA), 05-18-2006 16:07:22  
"Sphincterly challenged", that's a good one, might have to borrow it. I'm thinking of pulling the front end and checking the cam timing gear. Before I do that, I need to ask, is it possible or likely that the timing could be so far off that I would get zero compression on 2 cylinders (only checked 3,4)? Assuming the timing is the problem, how would it get that far off in the first place and how do I correct it?

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Dell (WA)

05-19-2006 09:55:38




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-19-2006 07:26:35  
Alan..... ...I flunked mind reading, just ask my ex-wife of 32yrs. We can only make suggestions based upon what you report. You didn't tell us about the PO "rebuild". We answered your questions.

Study yer I&T FO-4 manual. You'll find that there are "witness marks" on both the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear that MUST be aligned-up. You can NOT see them until you remove yer engine front timing cover. Its really eazy to miss-mesh the gears. Yer valves will still go uppsie-downsie but not in syncronation with the crankshaft stroke. Thus the "loss of compression".

Engine crankshaft/camshaft miss-timing is NOT a micrometer kinda thing, its a major "tooth" kinda thing and is obvious iff'n yer looking for it. I'm not gonnna repete others instructions for checking valve action versa crankshaft stroke. Nor am I gonnna tell you how to change the gear-mesh relationship. But I will tell you, you'll be ahead of the game iff'n ya takes yer hood/gastank and radiator off FIRST. You've got major accessability problems to solve..... .....respectfully, Dell, the mindless reader

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Alan R

05-19-2006 10:42:44




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Dell (WA), 05-19-2006 09:55:38  
Sorry if I attempted to put you in "mind-reading" mode, but it's easy for me to forget what I have and haven't actually stated in these messages. I do appreciate the help even if I may not have stated the questions correctly. I've searched the archives and found some instructions for lining up the marks on the cam and crank, but then I read other messages saying those marks may be off so don't go by them. I guess I won't know any more until I take things apart again, and yes, I do plan to remove the hood, tank, radiator, front end first. I apologize if I wasn't clear about the PO (this means partial overhaul?). Because the tractor was (allegedly) running prior to blowing the head gasket, I did not think it was necessary to go into the valve timing at all (of course now I wish I had at least checked it while things were apart). Live and learn. Now I have another weekend project ahead of me. I'll post again when I know more. Thanks for putting up with me so far.

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Jetman8N

05-18-2006 15:56:55




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 Re: 8N Won't Start After Rebuild - Update in reply to Alan R, 05-18-2006 15:36:50  
With dry spark plugs, I'd agree it looks like fuel supply. But timing could also be a problem.
Pull the number one plug. Have someone rotate the engine with a crank or wrench until you feel the piston come up on the compression stroke. There should be noticeable pressure coming out. If not, then your valves are not set right. Check to see the timing mark is at zero on the flywheel. Pull the distributor cap (easy if this is a sidemount, not so easy on the front mount. Verify that the rotor is pointed to the number one distributor nipple. If so, your timing and distributor is probably set right.
Replace the spark plug and distributor cap. Remove the nipple in the intake manifold above the carb. With the choke pulled out rotate the engine and see if you feel a vacuum on your finger. With a fresh engine, it should be very apparent. If so, spray some gasolene or ether in the hole while trying to start the engine. IF it fires, it's a carb problem. As Dell would say, simple, eh? Good luck and write back with any additional clues if it doesn't run.

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