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Dell why 20/50 oil?

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ratropia

09-07-2006 17:44:02




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49 8N. Dell, I was looking through the archives about oil wt. I came across one of your replies that you stated you use 20 50 oil. Why that and not straight 30? I am curious as I just got thru with the last finish mow of the season and am draining the oil for the season as I type. I live in southern part of the lower penisula of MI.,and used 30 wt in the past. Thanks for the input. Rick T.




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popbreed

09-08-2006 08:23:50




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
Another concern with today"s automotive oils is their change in additives. These oils (including the semi Syn) have elminated the additives which reduce scuffing. This was necessary for EPA reasons and also fuel mileage reasons. For the past three years, this has created many problems for speciality cam and lifter manufacturers due to prematutre wear. Many thought this was caused by quality problems (poor metal or poor heat treat)when the cams and lifters were made. But recent testing has shown the problem is one of lubricity factors in the oils.
These new fromula oils work great in the newer cars with roller cam shafts but create problems especially with motors with solid lifters. I belong to a forum for the Ford Y-Block motors (1954 to 1964) which all use a mushroom solid lifter. Aftermarket sources for these lifters are all off shore and therefore it must be their quality whcih was causing premature lifter wear! But, again recent tests indicate their qualty meets OE specs. The Y-Block forum is now recommending either Rotella T oil (20W50) or one of the racing formulated oils. Rotella T was formulated for diesels only and therefore has the additional additives (I believe Manganese is the prime one missing) as do the racings oils.
I have two vehicles using the Y-Block motor (64 PU with a stock 292 and 56 sedan with a modified 312) and have switched both over to Rotella T from Motorcraft Semisyn. Both motors run quieter now but I especially notice a substanial drop in lifter noise in the 312.
The high performance cam manufactres like Comp Cams are now requiring Rotella T be used for at least break in periods for their performance cams.
Our N motors do have the solid lifters but do not have the heavy valve spring pressure but I do plan on using Rotella T (20W50)when I get my 8N back together.
Sorry for the long winded reply but it is "food for thought".

POP

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Stumpalump

09-08-2006 14:43:15




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to popbreed, 09-08-2006 08:23:50  
Pop,
You sold me! Thats the best oil info I've read in a long time. Rottella comes in synthetic for the new stuff too. I wonder how it's made up?



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TheOldHokie

09-08-2006 11:01:15




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to popbreed, 09-08-2006 08:23:50  
Interesting data. Does the Rotella-T carry a different service rating than the Semisyn and the other products that have eliminated these banned lubricity additives?

These oil producers seem to guard their specific formulations like the family jewels. If API gives them all the same service rating how's the poor guy on the street supposed to know the difference?

TOH



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popbreed

09-08-2006 13:20:16




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-08-2006 11:01:15  
Yes, Rotella T is a CI-4 oil which is the latest API catergory for diesel motors. The latest API for gasoline vehicles is SM (late 2004), prceeded by SL (2004 and older and then preceeded by SJ (2001 and older vehicles). All gasoline begin with S and all diesel begin with C. The two additives eliminated were Zinc and Manganese and they were eliminated because EPA wanted to improve Catalytic converter life. Who cares about the camshaft and lifters in our older vehicles? How do we trark what is going on? Good question. These and all forums help. We would be lost without the internet so next they will attempt to eliminate the internet (grin).

POP

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Stumpalump

09-08-2006 06:36:11




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
This is a great question and I'm reading all great replies. In a newer engine with tight seals synthetiic rules. Not a believer? Next time you are drilling metal use regular oil and then synthetic. Mobil One,Red line,Amsoil,and a couple of other high end synthetics are the only real synthetics. The rest are man made junk and can be labled synthetic because of a lawsuit they won. Synthetic is king period. On older engines that are dirty inside use Rotella (diesil) oil. 15w 40.Good all around vicosity numbers and made to hold and clean soot and crud from you engine. Regular oil 20w 50 is best protection but less gas milage. I like protection. I dump a little Lucus oil stabilizer in all. It,s that stuff you see sticking to the gears when you turn the crank at the parts stores. It leave a film of thin grease on all surfaces after shut down. Don't belive? In the morning stick you finger into the oil fill hole and touch a rocker arm. Buy it by the gallon at truck stops. While you at it buy a gallon of Lucus fuel treatment. It put's the lubrication back into diesil fuel and gas. I use a shot of sta-bil and shot of Lucus in everthing except daily driver gas cars and have not been in a carburator since.

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TheOldHokie

09-08-2006 05:46:11




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
I'm not Dell either but I'll offer some simple information since this issue seems to be generally spawn a barrage of FUD.

Engineering is always about trade-offs. In the days prior to multi-grade oils automotive engineers were forced to tradeoff reduced lubrication of a heavier oil at cold engine startup to obtain adequate viscosity at engine operating temperature once the oil thinned down. Multi-grade oils were developed to SOLVE THIS UNIVERSAL PROBLEM.

There's no such thing as a "single viscosity oil". ALL oils change viscosity with temperature changes. The viscosity of a conventional mineral oil goes DOWN as the temperature of the oil goes up. The viscosity of a multi-grade oil goes UP as the temperature of the oil goes up.

And yes a 20W50 is really a 20W base mineral oil with additives (except for synthetics which DO NOT need additives) that change it's physical behavior such that it's viscosity goes up with temperature. So what - viscosity is viscosity. And viscosity is simply a measure of how easily the oil flows - it is not a measure of lubricity. A 20W50 has EXACTLY THE SAME viscosity at 100C as a straight 50W. They are measured using the exact same requirements and procedures. They are not just "equivalent" - they are identical. Just like a 50/50 mix of water and ethyl glycol has a freezing point of about -30F. It's not an "equivalent freezing point - it's THE freezing point.

As Sounder notes it is important for an oil to have sufficient viscosity to stay on the parts so it's lubricity can protect the parts. It's also important that the oil not be so viscous when it's cold that the oil pumping system cannot deliver an adequate flow to the parts it's supposed to lubricate. That's the big ADVANTAGE of a multigrade - it pumps better at lower temperatures and has the viscosity at higher temperatures to maintain the oil film necessary to protect engine parts.

Any advantage a single grade oil might have as far as not draining away when the motor is not running is slim if any and more than offset by the advantage gained using a multi-grade of getting more oil to running engine parts faster on startup.

The addiitives used in multi-grade oils are a problem. Not so much because the "wear out" - you do change your oil regularly don't you - but because the oxidize and leave nasty deposits in the engine. Modern synthetics do not contain additives - they are molecularly different than mineral oils and they do not crud up your engine with deposits. They are a REALLY GOOD oil and are priced accordingly.

All that said what's it mean for N's. Well IMHO there's nothing special about these engines. The basics of aiutomotive engoineering apply to them just like a modern OHV engine. Because they are flatheads they do not have as demanding a requirement for oil delivery to the upper end because they don't have one! So the pumping problem of a cold start is not as pronounced and a single grade provides good protection.

They also run cold (Hobo says about 160F). So a 10W30 which has a viscosity of 10 at 0C and 30 at 100C is likely to be more like a 20w at operating temp. And similarly a SAE 30W is going to be somewhat higher viscosity - maybe 40W at that temp.

So enter Dell's 20W50. On a cold near-zero morning it's somewhere around 20W and when his easy starting 6V N kicks over the oil starts flowing MUCH faster than a SAE 30W which at that temp is near gear oil viscosity and a real load for the N's puny oil pump to suck up. And when that N hits operating temp of 160 (Dell also believes in thermostats) the 20W50 has moved up to say 40W. DOH!


  • Do you NEED to run a SAE 30W - no.
  • Do you NEED to run a SAE 20W50W - no.
  • Do you get better protection from the SAE 20W50 than the SAE 30W in cold climates - I think yes.

YMMV

TOH

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SteveB(OH)

09-08-2006 11:54:56




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-08-2006 05:46:11  
Hokie,

This is a very good write up, but I question one of your statements :

"The viscosity of a multi-grade oil goes UP as the temperature of the oil goes up. "

I don't believe that the viscosity goes up, but rather it doesn't go DOWN as fast as it normally would, so that at 100 degrees C. it still has the viscosity of a 50 weight w/o additives.

As you stated earlier, all oils thin out as they get hotter. Imagine a graph of viscosity vs temp for both 50 w and 20 w oils w/o additives. As the temp rises, each oils viscosity falls. Now plot a 20 w oil with additives where the viscosity falls, but not as fast. At 100 C the 50W and the 20W w/additives will cross.

It's a small point, but what else do we have to do on a Friday afternoon ?? :) :)

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TheOldHokie

09-08-2006 20:04:32




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to SteveB(OH), 09-08-2006 11:54:56  
Yes I see your point and I suspect you are absolutely correct. The problem is there are really two different SAE scales. There's the 0C scale and the 100C scale. SAE 20 is defined to be a specific SSU flow rate at 0C. SAE 20W is defined to be a specific SSU flow rate at 100C. They are clearly NOT the same absolute viscosity. The SAE nomenclature for a multigrade SAE 20W50 oil means it is an SAE 20 at 0C and an SAE 50W at 100C. The SAE viscosity NUMBER is higher but quite possibly the absolute viscosity is lower.

Point well taken and I stand corrected.

As far as what to do with a Friday afternoon goes I personally chased a golf ball ;-)

TOH

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TheOldHokie

09-09-2006 04:11:33




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-08-2006 20:04:32  
Dang - I posted that twice AND I screwed up the description of the SAE grading system. The W in the SAE grade designates a Winter grade so SAE 20W is the 0C grade and SAE 20 is the 100C grade.

TOH



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TheOldHokie

09-08-2006 20:04:31




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to SteveB(OH), 09-08-2006 11:54:56  
Yes I see your point and I suspect you are absolutely correct. The problem is there are really two different SAE scales. There's the 0C scale and the 100C scale. SAE 20 is defined to be a specific SSU flow rate at 0C. SAE 20W is defined to be a specific SSU flow rate at 100C. They are clearly NOT the same absolute viscosity. The SAE nomenclature for a multigrade SAE 20W50 oil means it is an SAE 20 at 0C and an SAE 50W at 100C. The SAE viscosity NUMBER is higher but quite possibly the absolute viscosity is lower.

Point well taken and I stand corrected.

As far as what to do with a Friday afternoon goes I personally chased a golf ball ;-)

TOH

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ratropia

09-08-2006 10:18:41




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-08-2006 05:46:11  
Thanks to all for the replies and comments. I do appreciate all the input and candor.
Rick T.



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Dell (WA)

09-08-2006 07:06:09




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-08-2006 05:46:11  
Hokie..... ....EXCELLENT EXPLAINATION, I am in total agreement..... ..Dell



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Dell (WA)

09-07-2006 23:17:56




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
Rattzie..... ....I use 20-50wt oil because I UNDERSTAND oil specifications and it works for my "mild-climate" Puget Sound area at the foot of 14k Mt Rainier where it seldom gets under freezing and seldom gets over 90° F. But mainly I use 20-50wt oil in my tractor because I have 5-other vehicles and its a 1-size (viscosity?) fitts ALL situation. (3-diesels and 2-BMW's, all HI-MILAGE non-oil burners, that I religiously change every 4000 mi with new filter)

Realize 20-50wt oil is really 20wt oil with additives that make it act like 50wt oil when HOT.

REMEMBER, Ford's 1939 recommendation of 30wt oil for normal operation and 40wt oil for HOT extreme operation and add kerosene to thin the oil for below 0° F operation. Kendall boasted their oil was good for 2000mi between changes, most 1939 oil changes were every 1000mi. Modern multi-viscosity oil is so much better.

Unfortunately, due to excessive gov't milage requirements, modern automobiles oil specs are frequently 5-20wt to reduce oil drag and improve gasoline milage for advertizing braggin' rights. Engines don't last long on too thin oil 'cuz metal part rubbin' each other wear out sooner.

Annual fall oil change is good because it drains the carbons and acids so they don't eat yer soft bearings over winter. More important 50/50 ANTI-FREEZE to keep from cracking yer block in COLD Mich..... ..Dell

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old

09-07-2006 23:13:52




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
I'm also not Dell and my self I NEVER use a muti weight oil in any thing. I'm old school and I don't believe that a muti weight oil can be as spec say it is. Shoot in the summer I use 40 or 50 weoght oils and the tractors I run in the winter I use a 30W oil, and nothing else even in my cars/trucks. This high teck stuff it good in theory but, and thats it the butt can and does get you at times. Guess thats alos why I don't think a computer has a place in a car/truck either, to many things can go wrong and I have seen it to many time.

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Gregg E

09-07-2006 19:03:57




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to ratropia, 09-07-2006 17:44:02  
Im not Dell but I would think on a worn engine your bearing need a little thicker oil to build pressure. On my 43 2N (working tractor) if I use straight 30 wt I have 5 psi, if I use 20/50 I m getting about 20 psi. If you live in colder climate areas I would stick with 30 wt though.



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gahorN

09-07-2006 22:59:57




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 Re: Dell why 20/50 oil? in reply to Gregg E, 09-07-2006 19:03:57  
Also not Dell. ;Þ
20W50 is actually a SAE 20 wt oil ... with additives to make it behave like a 50 wt oil at 100 degrees Centigrade. So...in cold climates it will pump quickly like a 20 wt oil. When the engine warms up, it should maintain an oil film like a 50 wt oil. But.... the downside is it"s still a 20 wt oil. It will drain off parts like a 20 wt oil and will not be there to protect parts at startup or during storage like a 30 wt oil will. And when those additives are worn out (happens sooner than you think...why do you suppose the oil change requirements have dropped to only 3,000 miles on autos?) you are stuck with a 20 wt oil. Straight 30 is a better oil for all-around purposes. It will stay on parts better during storage. It will behave more consistently despite operating temp extremes. It will not lose viscosity as additives fail because it does not depend on additives to do it"s joh. Multi-grade oils are good for cold starts in arctic temperatures...and that"s about all they are good for. IMHO.

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