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8N - No fire on one side of points

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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 11:49:58




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I recently bought an 8N with a side-distributor but cannot get it to start. This tractor was parked (outside) for several years. The cylinders are all running above 90 PSI, the spark plugs have been changed (Autolite 216) as well as the points and the condenser. The old gas has been drained, the carb cleaned with a new needle/seat and gaskets installed. A new coil has been installed. The resistor going to the coil reveals good continuity. However with all this, with the ignition on and the points closed, I can only get a spark when the "movable" side of the points is shorted against the distributor case but nothing when the "immovable" part of the point set is shorted. When removed and held in the hand, the points reveal good continuity. At best all I have gotten the little tractor to do is to backfire loudly. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. I've also cleaned the battery ground connection as well as the other wire connections and have tried to start it with the ignition switch bypassed. I've got to pick up a shredder and a blade this week and I really don't want to have to drag them onto my trailer with a winch. Help!

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Ron in Texas

09-28-2006 18:08:51




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
Thanks to all who took the time to respond to my questions. Today I found that someone had installed the distributor 3 or 4 gears off TDC. After moving it back to where it was supposed to be, the tractor fired right up after many years of being parked in a field. I've still got a dirty carburetor to contend with but the tractor runs well enough to get the equipment on my trailer for the long trip across Texas.

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Sam#3

09-28-2006 07:03:09




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
You wrote:
“I can only get a spark when the "movable" side of the points is shorted against the distributor case but nothing when the "immovable" part of the point set is shorted.”
The stationary contact is grounded and so is the distributor case so in effect you are shorting a short. The moveable is the battery contact and so a spark would be expected IF the contacts are not making.
The fact you’re ‘hitting’ part of the time I would suggest, based on the statement, to clean the point contact with a good solvent and a good grade bond paper. DO NOT FILE, sandpaper or otherwise damage the contact surface. May also check the gap on all cam lobes and check for bushing wear.

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Royce in fl

09-27-2006 18:50:55




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
ron you only have fire to one side of your points
when the hot side makes contact with the grounded
side you get a spark.if you are getting this spark
and the tractor is back fireing it could be timing.you said the tractor had been sitting
out side for awhile,it might be a valve sticking
open or part way open.
i am no expert but i have a 49 8n for 11 yrs now
and have had all the problems
hope this helps

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TheOldHokie

09-27-2006 16:33:40




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
Maybe I'm missing something here but have you confirmed that the base plate of the points is making a good ground contact with the distributor?

TOH



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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 18:14:37




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to TheOldHokie, 09-27-2006 16:33:40  
Yes, the points are lying flat on the base plate which was thoroughly cleaned before installation of the points. Thanks for the reply.



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Hobo,NC

09-27-2006 13:36:57




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
"The resistor going to the coil reveals good continuity" a 6V side mount does not need a resistor, if 12V use a IC14SB or IC64SB coil no resistor needed.
"At best all I have gotten the little tractor to do is to backfire loudly" Sound like its out of time maybe but fergit that for now, first you need good spark. Sum times its impossible or a PITA to git a old or coroded set of points to make good contact, git new points and condenser and retry.

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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 14:24:45




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Hobo,NC, 09-27-2006 13:36:57  
This tractor is a side-mount with a 12-volt alternator conversion. I was told by a local 8n mechanic that I could use a 6-volt coil as long as I had the in-line resistor. Is this correct or do I need a 12-volt coil? The new coil I installed today came from a local tractor and parts dealer who handles a lot of 8Ns. The coil is a 6-volt coil number D4PE12029AA, if this helps.



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Hobo,NC

09-27-2006 15:50:50




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 14:24:45  
Certainly!!!!!,,, you could use a 6V coil with the rite resistors, but why when you kin git a real 12V coil and do away with the resistor. I speck yer tractor guy does no know a real 12V coil exist, NAPA IC14SB or IC64SB, cheap @ $17.00 . I do not know what the difference izz on the IC64 coil cuzz I have not checked it out, I would hope it’s a little bigger around than the 14 cuzz the 14 izz smaller than a stock 6V coil, both have the same resistance and DO NOT need a resister. Now fergit this fer now, yer screwdriver arc test did confirm that you could make good spark so concentrate on the points, if the points were good and make’in good contact the arc test would have not werked with the points closed cuzz the points would have already pulled the coil to ground, matter of fact that test izz the one most off’in used to shade tree test the points and confirm that spark kin me made. No need to confuse you with how spark izz made just remember the points are a on-off switch mechanically operated by the distributor One side of the points (base) izz grounded to the point plate and the other izz insulated from ground. All the points do izz momentarily pull the coil to ground. That’s zackly what you did with the arc test. Some times the point contacts git so dirty or oxidized its ‘bout impossible to git’em clean enough to create a good ground when needed. When all izz good you should be able to remove the coil wire out of the cap and manually open and close the points and see a sharp blue spark that will jump 3/16” or more and snap-crack‘el-pop.

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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 16:47:33




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Hobo,NC, 09-27-2006 15:50:50  
I now believe that someone has pulled the distributor and may have moved it at least a tooth off. When number one comes up on the compression stroke, and the closest flywheel marks are brought to the 0 degree mark, the rotor points about 45 degrees away from the number one position on the distributor. It's a bit too late today to explore this possibility but I will post more results tomorrow.

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BillM (OH)

09-27-2006 20:03:15




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 16:47:33  
If she's backfiring, you got fire - if your points gap is correct, then she'a outta time or you gotta stuck valve(s). With #1 @ TDC on compression and the rotor pointing half way to #2, whatta you think????



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Hobo,NC

09-27-2006 17:05:50




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 16:47:33  
Sorta what I first thought but while you had spark on yer mind I did not want to git to many things bouncing around in yer head so I felt werk’in to git satisfied with the spark wuz first order. Not to many kin recognize the fact that they kin make spark as you did. You did eliminate a lot of possibilities with yer shade tree test.
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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 18:10:52




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Hobo,NC, 09-27-2006 17:05:50  
I will post more tomorrow as I learn more. I actually picked up two 8ns this past week here in deep east Texas while visiting a brother, a side-mount and a front-mount. Along with these, I also located bargains on a used 5" shredder and a 5" foot straight blade. These I need on my place in the Panhandle of Texas. I had thought surely I could get at least one of the old 8N girl's purring so I could use it to get the equipment on my trailer. I've now put off the guy with the equipment until Saturday but I am about ready to switch over to the old front mount if I can't get the side-kicker going pretty soon. I really think the timing is the ticket. The signs are there and there are too many firecrackers in the old girl's tailpipe. Hopefully I just let myself get distracted looking for sparkies in the bright Texas sun. Keeping fingers crossed.

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old

09-27-2006 13:06:02




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
Thats how the point should work, if they don't work that way you have problems with them. Your fireing order maybe off, or you might have a bad cap and or rotor. When I get a tractor like that I do a full tune up because all those parts will be queastionable any how



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Peter, Covington, LA

09-27-2006 12:44:30




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out your test results, because of something I'm not sure you're aware of. It's that the spark occurs when the points OPEN, not when they close.

So, let's see, if the points are opening and closing as the engine turns over, what's supposed to be happening is that the points are alternatively supplying a ground to one side of the coil, then not. The other side of the coil is getting "hot" juice from the ignition switch through the resistor. It's when the ground is removed that the spark occurs, and its intensity is greatly magnified by the condenser.

If I read your post correctly, your engine is not turning, and the points are closed. You use a screwdriver or something to short the points arm to the distributor case, and as you remove it or jiggle it you get a spark. But, if you do the same thing to the fixed side of the points, you get no spark.

If that's a correct reading, the problem is that the points are not making contact with each other. Possibly dirty, possibly misaligned, possibly set so tight that they never really close when the cam is at its low point (my favorite of the three).

My reasoning is this: If the points never realy close, you never get a ground to the coil, unless you jiggle that screwdriver from the arm to the case. Doing the same thing to the stationary points does nothing, as the points are electrically, if not physically, open so there is no continuity.

If the points were truly closed, or more correctly if they were electrically making contact, they'd be supplying a constant ground to the coil, and no amount of screwdriver jiggling would prodce a spark, because you'd be temporarily groundng something that's already grounded.

Try adjusting the points a bit looser. Then stick the corner of a dollar bill between them, and with the points "closed" on it, pull it out. If there's no resistance, the points aren't closed. If there is, that action might just dislodge the dirt that's insulating the points from each other. Finally, if not, use your wife's emery board the same way, to "burnish" the points clean.

I hope this helps!

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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 13:22:26




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Peter, Covington, LA, 09-27-2006 12:44:30  
I've set the new points numerous times but will take a closer look to see that they are inddeed closing fully. My old bifocaled eyes are not what they used to be.



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Ron in Texas

09-27-2006 13:17:35




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Peter, Covington, LA, 09-27-2006 12:44:30  
Thanks. This seems to be becoming more clear but shouln't you get some sort of current on the "out-side" (immovable side) of the points when they are closed? I just tried another set of new points but get the same result; e.g., no spark can be seen in the points with key on, distributor cap off, and starter turning engine.

I have checked the plug wires and all seems to be in the correct order.

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Roger in Iowa

09-27-2006 12:34:13




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 Re: 8N - No fire on one side of points in reply to Ron in Texas, 09-27-2006 11:49:58  
The immoveable side should be grounded to the distributor case. There should be no fire from it to ground. Only the moveable side should have fire.

Sounds like the spark plug wires may not be to the right cylinders.



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