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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Polarizing a generator

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Sean (TX)

10-04-2006 17:54:16




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How do I go about doing this on my 41 9N. Generator has 3 wires. What looks like a regulator has BAT, FLD and ARM

Before I put the hood back on after my paint job. I rewired everything. Before I was getting no reading on the amp guage. Always on zero. Replaced the guage today. The needle on the old one fell apart when I removed it. Started her up today and the needle was on the negative side. Then after running a while it returned to zero.
I had the battery disconnected when I rewired the tractor. So I am thinking I need to Polarize the generator. How do I go about this....


Thanks...

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Sean (TX)

10-05-2006 18:03:54




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 Re: Polarizing a generator...UPDATE in reply to Sean (TX), 10-04-2006 17:54:16  
It could be the gauge is wired backwards...I didnt look at the old gauge to see where the + and - was. I just hooked up the wires the way they were. I didnt get a harness. I had plenty of marine grade wire on hand already. I replaced them one wire at a time. I even ran the wires through the loom.. Ill have to look it over this weekend. Trying to finish the dog legs and grill...I need to get in some seat time.

Had her running again today. I polerized it first. Still runs on the - side.

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Southpaw

10-06-2006 11:04:27




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 Re: Polarizing a generator...UPDATE in reply to Sean (TX), 10-05-2006 18:03:54  
Sean,
Mine did that too till I swapped the wires around on the guage. In my case somewhat had switched it to a negative ground system before I got the tractor. I've never had to polarize mine 'cause I left it negative ground. The tractor didn't seem to mind which way the electrons were going. And I know in my heart that if I switched it positive ground someday I would put a charger on that tractor backwards.

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Sean (TX)

10-06-2006 17:32:40




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 Re: Polarizing a generator...UPDATE in reply to Southpaw, 10-06-2006 11:04:27  
I got a analog voltmeter today...Cheap 11 bucks at autozone. Ill test the voltage and if it checks out I will swap the wires.



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dan hill

10-05-2006 02:16:29




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to Sean (TX), 10-04-2006 17:54:16  
The battery gets disconnected from the generator each time the engine shuts off.If it didnt you will have a dead battery.If you follow the odd logic of the polarize birds you would have to polarize the generator every time you start the engine.You probably painted a connection.Another thing you could have done is hooked the new ammeter up backward and now your discharge is actually charge indication.Time to read the voltage at the armature terminal with the engine running, should be 7.5 volts.Dont use a digital meter.

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souNdguy

10-05-2006 06:04:31




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to dan hill, 10-05-2006 02:16:29  
third party image

Dan.. please define this 'odd logic' that you speak so lowly of. include all technical refs and theory to 100% support your reply.

The usualy reason we suggest to repolarize a system is to make sure the pole pieces have a residual charge.. For day to day, and month to month.. heck.. even year to year use.. they should retain residual magnetism. however, if a unit is disassembled, or repaired with new parts.. there might not be any residual magnetism. Same with changing polarities.

next reason is to set the cutout on the vr. Again.. same reasons apply.. if it is a new vr, or if it is a polarity swap.

i don't think I have ever seen anyone advocating repolarizing a genny/reg just because a cutout relay opens the circuit after the engine stops. If you have.. please post a link to the message...

I have 5 tractors that needed genny / vr repolerization when i got them due to no charge.

On my 66 IH cub,oem 12v, the vr was new, and just bolted on by the prev owner when he sold the tractor, and the tractor didn't charge. Old genny, new vr.. etc.. I polarized it, and it charged.

On my 50 JD B, the oem genny and vr were disconnected and a 12v battery was setting int he bat box. owner had used it like that for 12 years as it had a magneto, and he just charged the battery now and then. I hooked the vr and genny back up to a 6v battery... no charge... i repolarized.. and now it works every time.

My ford 660 had the oem genny and oem or at lest vintage vr. Someone had obviously taken the genny and vr and sheet metal off to replace the gas tank. i also noticed new bat, and new bat cables and terminal clamps. Unit did not charge.. but it did after repolerizing it.

On my 8n, the owner had the genny rebuilt, and the rebuild shop sold him an incorrect vr.. it did not charge.. but he hooke dit all up anyway.. and dropped an 8v battery in. I replaced the 8v batttery with a 6v unit., got a new vr, and then had to repolarize to get charge. VR was new, and genny had new guts.

On my 5000, it did not charge. OEM 12v lucas genny, and oem lucas VR. Genny had dirty contacts. I cleaned them. Still no charge.. I repolarized the system... now it charges. Later a friend sent me a new repop vr for a 12v diesel hundred series ford to replace the flaky lucas vr with the bad contacts. I installed it, and it did not charge.. I of course had to polarize it, then it charged fine.

Hard to argue with emperical data. Fact is.. none of my units that needed repolerization were magically going to start charging by themselves., until they were correctly polerized.

I have included a link to some vintage literature. It came out of the manual for some heavy equipment we have... Interestingly enough.. it explains how to replace a regulator, and repolerize. Now.. why would those instructions have been included in the manual if there was never a need to repolerize anything?

Soundguy

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dan hill

10-06-2006 03:44:51




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to souNdguy, 10-05-2006 06:04:31  
About 55 years ago some friends and I started a Model A Ford that had been sitting for ten years.My Dad looked at the ammeter and said ,its charging ok.We used this Ford for 15 years for odd jobs and running along woods roads.We parked it when snow fell ,took the battery out.It never failed to charge in the spring when it was started.My John deere H is used mostly for mowing now and I have never have polarized it in 40 years.I repair old generators and have yet to have one fail to charge.My Ford 600 has had several new batterys in 15 years.It stopped charging when the shunt coil opened up in the Vr cutout.A new regulator was installed and the ammeter said it was charging,no polarizing done.If a generator was brand new and had no residual magnetism in the field pieces you may have to close the cutout points by hand once.There is nothing in a point type VR that is polarity sensitive.An electro magnet will attract the steel armature on either polarity of the applied voltage.The old Motor Manuals have a few lines on polarizing and the practice of hammering field pole screws to loosen or tighten them could affect residual magnetism.Last but not least, how could the generator detect the fact the the battery had been removed from the tractor.There is a smell of baffle them with BS around polarizing.

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souNdguy

10-06-2006 05:24:53




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to dan hill, 10-06-2006 03:44:51  
I see you deftly avoided all the factual points of my message.. so this will be the last post I make on this subject, to you.

I asked you to point out where I said that simply removing the battery, or having the cutout open, would cause a loss of polerization. ..

I see that you posted no evidence to the contrary.

The rest of your message just goes on to back up what my message said.. as long as there was residual magnetism.. thet everything is fine.

Soundguy

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dan hill

10-06-2006 16:11:07




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to souNdguy, 10-06-2006 05:24:53  
A poster on another forum insists the removing a battery will cause polarization to be needed.You seem to have the same idea.An oxide film on a commutator will prevent generation.Ive started a lot of AC farm generators working by just putting pressure on the brushes with a pine stick.Everyone know things that We dont know.Never say never.



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souNdguy

10-06-2006 21:02:16




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to dan hill , 10-06-2006 16:11:07  
Breaking my own rule here by posting yet again.. but you will find that neither of my previous posts mention that simply removing a battery from a machine will automatically make it need to be repolarized. The fact that someone else on another board said it.. doesn't mean I said it. The residual magnetisim is the key here. Now, if you remove the battery to change ground polarity, then yes.. repolarize. I'd also like to point out.. repolarizing takes about 10 seconds.. and never hurts anything.. so there is no good reason not to do it, if you have done some genny/ regulator / battery work. Having a phobia -against- polerizing is what actually seems weird, considering there are situations when it is needed, and it doesn't hurt anything.

Soundguy

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Sean (TX)

10-05-2006 02:45:24




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to dan hill, 10-05-2006 02:16:29  
Completely rewired it. Everything is clean brite and tight. It sat for a few years before I got it. Ill pick up a analog type meter today.



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souNdguy

10-04-2006 17:58:54




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to Sean (TX), 10-04-2006 17:54:16  
If it is A-circuit like an 8n 3 wire genny/reg.. polarize by jumpering bat to arm. Easy to check what circuit the system is by looking at the back of the reg. if you see a bias resistor from ground to field tab, then it is a-circuit.

Soundguy



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Sean (TX)

10-04-2006 18:09:59




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to souNdguy, 10-04-2006 17:58:54  
Thanks. I just looked it has a resistor on the back side that goes from ground to field tab. Ill try it out thursday after work....



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gahorn

10-04-2006 20:42:16




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to Sean (TX), 10-04-2006 18:09:59  
Make CERTAIN you only jumper for a split-second with the ignition switch on but with the tractor not running. Then remove the jumper and start 'er up. It's not necessary to polarize but momentarily.



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souNdguy

10-05-2006 05:46:58




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to gahorn, 10-04-2006 20:42:16  
Actually... the state of the ignition switch has absolutely NO bearing on the polerization process. The ignition is a completely seterate circuit, only sharing the ground palne and the battery in common.

Ignition switch on or off makes -0- difference. Look at the electron flow. You are taking a jumper fromt he bat side of the VR and jumpering to the armature. The bat side of the VR is always hot.. regardless of where the ignition switch is.

Also.. jumpering for a moment is all that is needed.. jumpering for 1-2-3-4 seconds won't hurt anything.. but is not needed.. just wasted current flow.

Soundguy

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Bob

10-05-2006 07:05:31




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to souNdguy, 10-05-2006 05:46:58  
Gotta back you up 100% on that post, S.G.!

NO need to have the ignition switch "ON".

And, keeping the jumper in place for a couple of seconds ain't gonna hurt anything, and may even HELP.

I have heard of old-time auto electrical guys even lightly tapping the belly of a generator, while keeping the polarizing current flowing to it for a few seconds.

Supposedly, especially after the pole shoes have been out of the generator for field coil replacement, the light tapping helps the belly and pole pieces attain a higher state of residual magnetism.

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souNdguy

10-05-2006 07:32:24




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to Bob, 10-05-2006 07:05:31  
Makes sense.. It probably lets the domains align better while being tapped on. after all, tapping on a magnet can demagnetize ( because it's domins randomly re-align to the earths weak magnetic field it.. ) so it stands to reason that if you are applying power and thus have a EMF and you tap the metal.. it should help it better attain a magnetic alignment.

Soundguy



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Sean (TX)

10-05-2006 02:47:24




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 Re: Polarizing a generator in reply to gahorn, 10-04-2006 20:42:16  
Thanks for the tip.



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