Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

more on this carb problem

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
ron,ar

10-25-2006 18:33:08




Report to Moderator

I removed the card again, re vatted it, washed in hot water and blew it out. with compressed air. I then used the pictures and drawings provided here from Hobo and Bob and ran wires all through the passages. Looked like a Marvel octopus with all those wires sticking every where. I am convinced I have it all cleaned out but.....something still ain"t rite!!! While the final main needle adjustment is about 2 1/2 turns, and the engine runs good at WOT without a big load, it still has two puzzling attributes that are driving me up a wall. The first is this. If you remember, I drilled a small hole in the top of the carb on advice given here. While running at WOT, if I cover the small hole, the enging will start to bog, kinda cut-out and surge, almost like it is running out of gas. I tried this with the cap off so it rules out a plugged tank vent. I re=checked the compression, all over 100 psi. I allowed it to die while covering the hole and had another close off the fuel shutoff valve. I removed the carb and re checked the float level and checked to see how much fuel was in the bowl. I did this to verify that it was not actually running the bowl out of gas. I realize that it is agreed that most carb problems are electrical but I have re checked all the electrical and have a good blue spark. I re checked the point adjustment. I have new H-12 plugs and real "wire" plug wires. The second thing that tells me it is not rite is that it still cuts out and bogs too much under full load. It sounds almost like a plug wire breaking down except that I have good wires and have even run it with the plug wires outside the "pipe" so I could watch for errant sparkies, which I did not see. The gov has been rebuilt and adjusted, and it does keep the throttle wide open when under load, it does not "hunt", the engine sounds like it is surging but it is not because of the throttle moving. I have tried this engine with the air cleaner tube on and off and with the muffler off at the rear (had to cut it off and re weld it on. My last resort is going to be to ask a friend to try this carb on his N to see if I can duplicate the problem. Any ideas?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
RP-40-9N

10-26-2006 17:49:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
IF YOU HAVE CHAMPION PLUGS, THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO CHECK.PULL ONE AND SEE IF ITS COVERED IN BLACK-DRY-SOOT. I JUST RE DID A FARMALL CUB ENGINE AND TRIED NEW CHAMPION PLUGS. NEVER AGAIN, I WAS ABOUT READY TO SCRAP THE CUB AND PULLED A PLUG AND WAS SHOCKED, NOT EVEN A GALLON OF FUEL AND COMPLETELY GUNKED.RP



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jim West TN

10-26-2006 15:39:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
Ron,
Since you've invested so much effort and time and have gained knowledge and frustration, its time to swap the carb to positively see if it is a carb problem which I'm guessing it is. But at least you will be confident you are looking at the right area.
Jim



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ritchie

10-26-2006 13:33:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
I had a mis / stumble under load. I rebuilt the carb, same deal. I did a tune up, no different. I pulled the head and found that the gasket was leaking coolant into the combustion chambers.
I replaced the head and manifold gaskets and it runs like a champ now.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Walter Thompson

10-26-2006 10:10:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
Have you tried pulling the plug out of the bottom of the carburator to see if there is a constant flow of gas. Sometimes on wot you just out run the flow if it is restricted.
WaltMo



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ZANE

10-26-2006 04:30:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
There is another condition that can prevent the gasoline from being drawn/pushed into the low pressure air stream in the venturi area of the carburetor even if the vent passages are clear and open and that is if the sealing around the top and bottom of the venturi is not suffecient to prevent too much of a vacuum for the vents to carry it all. When the venturi leaks enough it will allow the carburetor bowl area to become equal in vacuum pressure as the intake venturi area and when this condition is reached there is no barometric higher pressure in the bowl to push the fuel/gasoline into the venturi area. Actually the barometric pressure is what injects the fuel/gasoline into the intake when the intake pressure is lower than the bowl outside/barometric air pressure in the bowl area.
So make sure the venturi is not bent or that the gasket is not damaged or out of place so that the venturi is sealed top and bottom when the two halves are mated together.

Zane

Third Party Image

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry/MT

10-27-2006 12:08:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ZANE, 10-26-2006 04:30:31  
Zane, this carburetor is a "pressure balanced design" that uses a vent in the carb air horn to supply the pressure over the fuel bowl to provide the head for the main jet/main nozzle feed. This way, even if there is some restriction in the air filter, you don't get the enrichment you would get if the carb was vented to the atmosphere directly. It's pretty typical of all carb designs, it just that different manufacureers use different methods to acomplish it.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
1poppaw

10-26-2006 03:09:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
Had a similar problem-dropping a cylinder fairly reguler-it had champions in it when i bought it-switched to AL437's just from the education this great N-Board has given me,and problem gone!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RockyMO

10-25-2006 20:20:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
I have to agree with Jerry/MT on this one. If the ignition circuit is good you most likely have a vacuum leak. I have seen quite a few at the manifold to engine gasket. As far as drilling a hole in the carb is concerned all I can say is, WHY! This tractor and carb ran for 50 years with out a hole drilled there so it should run another 50 with out one. This sounds like a poor attempt to cover up a needed repair and only destroys parts in the process. With the (uneeded) hole sealed, if you pull the choke partially does it make the tractor run smooth? If so it verifies a lean condition and a can of choke cleaner will help to identify the location of the vacuum leak. If it does not help I would go back through the ignition paying special attention to the advance system in the distributor.

Rocky in MO

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 20:46:05




Report to Moderator
 picture in reply to RockyMO, 10-25-2006 20:20:46  
third party image

Rocky, Thanks for the reply, I have been fighting this thing for about 3 months now and one of the thing suggested was drilling that hole or cutting the gasket a tad between the carb halves. It was more of a diagnostic thing than a fix. When I first rebuilt the carb it looked pretty rough at the mating surfaces so I put a sheet of medium grit sandpaper on a sheet of glass and used that to get the surfaces flat and as true as I could. The choke does not help in either case, not with the hole open nor closed. This hole is very small, about the diameter of a small paperclip. This is just one of those things that I have decided "I am going to fix it, come he11 or high water". I can use it like it is, but that is not the point, something just ain't right and I want it to be RIGHT. It is not just some old junker, I have a lot of time and energy in it, as most of us do.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

10-25-2006 20:51:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: picture in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 20:46:05  
I LOVE a challenge! Too bad we're so far apart, I'd come over and camp out 'til we showed the darn thing who's boss!

Have you ever had a timing light on it, to verify the mech. advance is working? (Yeah, I know, front-mount, no timing marks. Easy enough to make your own on the front pulley.)

Have you ever looked at it on an ignition scope?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ron,ar

10-25-2006 21:08:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: picture in reply to Bob, 10-25-2006 20:51:43  
I thought about making a mark for that purpose. It would not have to be exact, but I have a timing light that has an advance knob on it, could easily see how much the advance was working. I don't have access to a working scope. I have an old Sun scope but it has long quit glowing when ya need it.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

10-25-2006 21:21:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: picture in reply to Ron,ar, 10-25-2006 21:08:55  
I really think the timing light is a good idea.

And, I'd be LOST without an ignition 'scope.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA)

10-25-2006 20:11:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
Ron..... ...been puzzelin' more about yer described problem.
You write..... ."The first is this. If you remember, I drilled a small hole in the top of the carb on advice given here. While running at WOT, if I cover the small hole, the enging will start to bog, kinda cut-out and surge, almost like it is running out of gas.....I allowed it to die while covering the hole"..... .when you kill yer engine this way, pull yer sparkies and read them. Black & sooty? (over-rich) or blistered white? (lean burn)

You write..... ."While the final main needle adjustment is about 2 1/2 turns, and the engine runs good at WOT without a big load..... .it still cuts out and bogs too much under full load"..... .you say you've replaced the sparkie wires with good solid copper-core wires....BUT....are you certain you have yer firing order correct? thats 1,2,4,3 CCW. These N-Engines are SOOOooo goooood, they'll run on just 2-cylinders, even to WOT (specially iff'n mainjet is opened-up RICH) but they will cut-out & bog under load. Usually sparkies 4 & 3 gitt swapped. Check'em out..... ..Dell

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 20:31:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to Dell (WA), 10-25-2006 20:11:52  
Dell, I pulled the plugs last night and looked after plugging the little hole...black, too rich. I have it wired right, no question there. I bush-hogged half a day Saturday with this tractor, it runs fair, just not RIGHT, especially under full load at WOT. Thanks for the tips,



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
K.LaRue-VA

10-25-2006 19:35:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
I am a firm believer in having some parts on hand or a good friend with the same tractor I can borrow parts from. I"d start swapping carbs or whatever other parts it takes to get the tractor running right or at least verify that you KNOW where the problem is.

If it is the carb, it is time to give up on that one, get a different new or rebuilt carb, and get some quality seat-time.

You might have a bad casting or one that was mis-drilled. There is a point where you have spent more time on a part than it is worth. I have a shelf out in the shop for parts like that. They sit, wrapped in plastic, until I decide to try to fix them or maybe steal parts for another project.

hope this helps, BTDT
kl

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 20:11:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to K.LaRue-VA, 10-25-2006 19:35:22  
Yep, I am leaning toward replacing the carb altogether, but I would really like to solve this.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jerry/MT

10-25-2006 19:30:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
You are having to use 2-1/2 turns on the power jet to get the engine to run properly, if I understand you correctly. That's twice as much as it should be. Are you sure that you have the correct jets and main nozzle? If you do, then I would suspect a leak in the connect flange gasket between the carb and the intake manifold, an intake manifold leak, a leak in the intake manifold gasket. It could also mean a leak at the throttle shaft but you just rebuilt the carb and I presume you put in a new shaft and seals. carefull spray some starting fluid around the areas mentioned and see if the rpm increases.

The reason I suspect this leakage is because you are using a large opening on the main jet to get proper running. So either your jets/main nozzle is too small or you have an air leak downstream of the metering system. The more I think about it, the problem is probably the latter because of what you experience when you close the vent hole that you drilled. When you do that you restrict the fuel flow rate because you've reduced the venting capability. You are at WOT and assuming an unrestricted air filter, the pressure in the carb inlet is at it's lowest value and the vent, at atmospheric pressue, is helping pressurize the fuel bowl. When you cover the vent, the pressure over the fuel is at a lower level (it's vented to the carb inlet instead of to the atmosphere) so the fuel supply is resricted. It's also adding air to the metered airflow which requires a slightly larger power jet opening than would occur it the hole wasn't there. Tape the hole over and readjust the main jet and see if that helps a little. Then check for manifold leaks.

Hope this helps.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 20:26:48




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-25-2006 19:30:24  
I tried taping the hole and readjusting the main already. With the hole taped I really had to bach the adjusting needle about 4-5 turns to get it back where it was close to right. As I said, I tried with the air cleaner pipe off and it didn't help either. I have sprayed choke cleaner around the mating surfaces of both the manifold to engine area and the carb to manifold area with no results. Choke cleaner seems to work better than starting fluid for this to me. My manifold to engine bolts are questionable as to being able to back them out without breaking them. I wanted to see how that manifold is made inside between the intake and exhaust. I thought maybe a leak there somewhere. I did change the throttle shaft and seals. This tractor starts very easily when cold and when warmed up it starts at almost a half a turn of the crankshaft. Idles great, runs at mid throttle under medium load good. At WOT (last 1/2 inch of throttle) it starts its problems. I suspect that when I find and fix the running problem the hole will not be necessary in the upper carb half. Thanks for the ideas, will post when I have something to report.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Syumpalump

10-25-2006 19:28:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
Is your gas fresh? Does the advance in the dist work ok? Do you know how to check it? I have read here more than once that a lot of carb problems turn out to be ignition. I'd go back from the start and check all the easy stuff with the plugs that were recomended. Dell recomends 1.5 turns on the main and that is real close to what mine likes. I bet your carb is better than new with all you know about them but if you can borrow another one... what a piece of mind that would be. Hang in there!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 20:09:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to Syumpalump, 10-25-2006 19:28:52  
Gas is fresh, used a higher octane also. Had the dist off AGAIN last night, checked the advance and the points, and again checked for bushing wear and found none. Thanks for the help tho.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Stumpalump

10-25-2006 19:37:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to Syumpalump, 10-25-2006 19:28:52  
I ment Stumpalump not Syumpalump but I've been called worse here.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ford 312

10-25-2006 18:38:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:33:08  
I would try replacing the Champions plugs with a set of Autolite 437 plugs. I have had some poor results with Champion plugs.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ron,ar

10-25-2006 18:51:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to Ford 312, 10-25-2006 18:38:51  
I saw some discussion to that effect in the archieves. Not sure why that would be the case but it is worth the effort/cost. I doubt that it is causing the more insignificent problem about the small hole. I can live with that if it will run right under load.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Southpaw

10-26-2006 09:23:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:51:19  
I wondered about that sparkplug talk myself so last spring I put Champions in my naa (6 volt). Seemed to run just fine - did about 20 hours of work with it and tore it apart for a paint job and some other repairs.
Since I knew it was going to be sitting for awhile I pulled the plugs and spritzed some fogging oil in each cylinder and was surpised to see the plugs were real sooty. After I put her back together the spark was mostly weak. I had the old autolites (real old, dunno how many hours) so I tried them after a cleaning. They were actually a little better but still weak as you'd expect from an old plug.
I just put in a set of ac delco's for fun. Brand new they have a nice fat blue spark - think I paid just over $5 for the set so it's worth a shot for your situation possibly.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
sjames

10-26-2006 09:12:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: more on this carb problem in reply to ron,ar, 10-25-2006 18:51:19  
I have an 8n and live in Fort Smith. Let me know if you want to try a different carb.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy