Head studs - washers under the nuts?

So - are you supposed to use washers under the nuts?

TIA,
Dan

Hmmmm - I guess I will just flip a coin now :-)

While it is true the original engines did not use washers under the nuts, and they worked just fine like that - that is like saying we should all use 30w non-detergent oil because that is what came in these great machines originally - and worked fine. We all know Henry Ford ONLY put what he HAD to into these machines to keep the costs down so the common man could afford one. There is nothing wrong with adding improvements to design where logical - much like using detergent multi-grade oil. My question wasn't if I "had" to use washers - it was if it would be an improvement.

However - I have learned quite a bit from the great people here (as usual) and really do appreciate your input on my ideas.

Thanks,
Dan

TOH

Normally I would as well. But I figured since I upgraded to grade 8 hardware I could squeeze by with a thread or two open. However; I am a phone man not a engineer - this is why I ask.

The head is uneaven in thickness as well. Some studs stick up over the top of the head so that a washer and nut fit perfectly, about 8 or so leave varying amounts of threads exposed on the top of the nuts. But none are as bad as when I had the stock 2 3/4" studs in place (see pic).

Dan

And yes the whole issue is likely much ado about nothing.

TOH

I have owned several "N"-series tractors over the years, and have never had a head gasket failure.

Yet, almost daily, someone posts on this board about head gasket failures, often MULTIPLE head gasket failures.

So, this all DOES matter.

IMHO, if the head and block are clean and "true", and a good gasket is used, along with good original-style fasteners, and proper torque, there should never be a head gasket failure.

What Dan is doing is going BEYOND this, with the Grade 8 hardware, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

If you have ever built a hot-rod engine, or read any articles about engine buildups, it is COMMON to use "ARP" grade 8 studs, nuts and hardened washers where extreme strength and reliability are needed.

Even though this simple low-compression engine doesn't require the Grade 8 studs and nuts (or washers), I'll bet Dan NEVER has a head gasket failure once he's done with this engine.

I think what he is doing is FAR more sensible than folks who toss the old studs, and replace them with bolts.

What he is doing is an UPGRADE, not some "off-the-wall" goofy idea. An, it is a PROVEN, sound idea, based upon high-performance gas engines and diesel engines commonly being set up this way.

The way he is using studs, installed into the clean holes makes it FAR less likely the threads will ever tear out of the block than if bolts were used. The sealant will keep the studs in place, and also prevent coolant leaks.

For the folks who advocate BOLTS, they should have been around last week, when I had to remove 17 broken headbolts from a flathead V-8 block!

However, I should have added, in my original post, to get slightly longer studs, along WITH the hardened washers.

Sorry I offended you!

Dan was already making updates to his engine, and questioned making another update.

I agreed with his idea, and presented sound reasons as to why it would be a good thing, based on newer, high-performance designs that are set up that way.

At the very least, doing what he was considering WON'T be detrimental to the longevity of the engine.

Once again, sorry that mentioning improvements that have been made in the last 60 years has offended you!

Cripes this is the thread from He!!.

If you like this kinda techno crap bop on down to the one on wiring and see if you can answer my OT shared neutral question.

Gotta go - the Garaj Mahal ain't gonna finish framing itself.

Check ya later,

TOH

The studs can then remain in place, unless major work is required.

This site gets "interesting" because of the different ideologies of people:

Purists, who have to have everything "original", not matter what the funtionality, or cost, and cringe at the slightest imperfection. (Hey, NOTHING wrong with that!)

Practical folks (I'd probably be in this catagory) who want a nice-looking, mostly original tractor, and don't mind an improvement or two... 12-Volts, maybe some better head studs, maybe power steering etc., etc..

CHEAP folks, who COULD, but won't make even basic repairs correctly.

Working folks, with a WORKING tractor, for whom needed repairs are a $$$ burden.

And, of course, the "hot rod set" who likes a "V-8" Funk with chrome headers. (Hey, sounds GOOD to me!) Or, how about Dell's smogpump supercharger???

What other groups have I not mentioned?

Obviously, the final goals of each group as to what a "restoration" or even a "daily driver workhorse" should look like are "at odds", and I guess thats why we don't always get along!

IMHO, we should ALL try to get along, and be tolerant of the ideas of others, as ANY old iron saved from the scrapper, whether it be a trailer queen, or a rusty workhorse is a GREAT old machine.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the torque issue on those bolts. Most teflon sealants are a pretty good lubricant - probably about the same effect on torque as oiling the threads for all practical purposes.

Regards,

TOH

Dan

Try squeezing a lockwasher with a pliers. When you release it, It will spring back.

Thanks for the input,
Dan

FWIW, many heavy-duty gasline engines and LOTS of diesels use hardened washers under head bolts/studs WITHOUT any lockwashers.

You KNOW the washers are a GOOD idea, from an engineering standpoint.

However, you are usually such a stickler for original detal.

On the other hand, you have violated originality rules with the chinese head, and longer studs.

So, my vote is to go with the washers.

I had a really long hard fought argument with myself over going with a good used head or keeping the new head that by many is an improvement in design and functionality. I settled for improvement - but reluctantly :-)

Oh - and by the way - the head is from Tiawan (grin).

Dan