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couple of 12v questions

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ericlb

12-25-2006 10:51:27

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im puttin a 12v alt on my jubilee since the old genny is shot, the tractor has been 12 volt since ive had it, about 10 years and even before that when i just used it, it just never was able to charge the battery, due to the 6v genny [i always just put a good quality battery in it and brought it in at nite and put it on a small charger, will run all day that way] im using a late '70's 3 wire chevy, and its about a 1/2 inch too far foward on the lower mount to line the belt up with the crank and fan , are you guys modifying the original bracket or making a new one out of strap steel? second i was going to wire up the 194 bulb, but will a 67 bulb work also?, reason im asking is i have a hole on the dash below the gauges not sure what went there but if the 67 would work i was going to mount a pickup bumper licence plate lite in there to lite the dash with,

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Bob

12-25-2006 11:36:34

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Re: couple of 12v questions in reply to ericlb, 12-25-2006 10:51:27

I don't have minature lamp spec sheets at hand at the moment, however, here's the deal:

Whatever lamp is used, it's current draw must be somewhere in the range of the #194 lamp.

If you use a lamp with extremely LOW current draw, the alternator MAY not consistently "excite" at low engine speeds.

If you use a lamp with an excessively HIGH current draw, current from the alternator's diode trio will "backfeed" out the #1 terminal, and back through the lamp, and into the primary ignition circuit, making the engine fail to "shut down" when the key switch is turned to "OFF".

Go ahead, and try what you have. If the alternator "excites" quickly at low RPM startup, AND the engine shuts down instanly when the key is turned to "OFF", you're "good to go".

If you do not want an "idiot light", a diode can be directly substituted for the lamp.

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Paul Smith

12-26-2006 06:44:51

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Re: couple of 12v questions in reply to Bob, 12-25-2006 11:36:34

I have a 12 volt converted 8n that I have had for 3 years. It used to charge but not sure any more. The alt looks just like the one in this pic. It only has one wire leaving the alt from the lug on the back. Is this possible?

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Bob

12-26-2006 08:27:44

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Re: couple of 12v questions in reply to Paul Smith, 12-26-2006 06:44:51

If you have a standard 3-wire alternator, it needs to be connected as shown in the photo.

What you MAY have is a so-called "one wire" alternator, to which someone has added a wire connected to the #1 "switched excite" terminal, and run to the ignition switch or possibly a pushbutton switch used to "GOOSE" the alternator at startup to avoid having to "rev" the engine at startup.

OR... it may be a standard alternator, and one wire has broken/fallen off.

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ron,ar

12-25-2006 15:29:36

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another option in reply to Bob, 12-25-2006 11:36:34

We used to use an automotive type ignition switch that had an off, on, and acc terminal. Instead of using the lamp or diode run the other wire to the acc terminal.

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Bob

12-25-2006 17:03:23

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Re: another option in reply to ron,ar, 12-25-2006 15:29:36

The ACC method, under certain circumstances, can increase the chance of diode trio or voltage regulator failure. If using that method, it is a good idea to use a #194 lamp, a 10 Ohm resistor, or a diode in the lead to the #1 "switched excite" terminal on the alternator.

That's how GM designed the alternator to be used... with something in the circuit to limit or prevent the backfeeding of current, why try to get around the original design???

The diagrams below show what can happen without a lamp, diode, or resistor in the wire to the #1 "switched excite" terminal, if you care to take the trouble to peruse them.

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Hah Bob

12-25-2006 18:22:47

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Re: another option in reply to Bob, 12-25-2006 17:03:23

He's not trying to get around the original design, just passing along bad advise that someone else passed along from someone else that passed it along from someone that thought they know more than the engineers at GM. Pretty common on this forum.

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ron,ar

12-25-2006 22:07:14

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Re: another option in reply to Hah Bob, 12-25-2006 18:22:47

actually no, not bad advive at all, but a tried system that worked and worked well. I worked for a drilling company for about 8 years and we used this system on 71 series detroit engines running mud mixing pumps that we did want to run WOT.They needed a battery and charging system that was easily maintained. They gave very little trouble and ran at idle and mid throttle a lot, I mean a lot! As in 24/7 365 days a year. When a rig is bringing in 8600 dollars a day if it is running and nothing if it is down you don't use things that don't work. Try running your system that long and see how good it really is. I would venture to say charging system questions make up a large portion of this boards space. I gave good advice, you just don't want to hear anything different. You are no better as far as keeping with "original" design if you are putting GM charging systems on Fords anyway. Not to mention being a coward by not signing a name on your post. Unless you are known as "hah bob" here we will just refer to you from now on as "hah coward"!

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Uh ron,ar

12-26-2006 05:30:17

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Re: another option in reply to ron,ar, 12-25-2006 22:07:14

Well, now we know who the guy that knows more than GM is, he's working on a drilling rig somewhere. LOL If you weren't so busy insulting me, you would read Bob's post, which explains why your "advive" is bad. "My system" as you call it, is the one GM engineers designed and installed on several million cars, I believe that's a better track record than all the well pumps in the world. At least we now know why you drilled a hole in the top of your carburetor when you couldn't find the vent!

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ron,ar

12-26-2006 07:54:46

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Re: another option in reply to Uh ron,ar, 12-26-2006 05:30:17

I drilled that on advice given here as a diagnostic step. I do believe if you look back you will see that Zane gave that advice as did several others. I didn"t see you sneaking around "hiding" then too ashamed of yourself to openly argue your point then. Still a coward I see! You insult yourself by refusal to show your identity. And yes, I did read Bob"s post, I have the utmost respect for Bob and don"t doubt his expertise in electrical systems at all. I merely pointed out an alternative, one that worked for me and others in some of the most adverse conditions imaginable. As far as your GM engineers go, are those the same engineers that let GM head down the tubes because they couldn"t keep up with Toyota? If you keep up with such things you will know that electrical troubles (charging, starting, power distribution) constitute 63% of all of GMs warranty work. Doesn"t sound like a bunch that I would be tooting a horn for.

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Bob

12-25-2006 22:37:00

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Re: another option in reply to ron,ar, 12-25-2006 22:07:14

Ron,

Sorry the other guy trampled you with both feet, but I stand by the advice in my other post.

Did you take a minute to look at the schematics showing how WHY using the "ACC" terminal on the ignition switch to avoid using a lamp, resistor or diode is a bad idea? Yes it DOES work, (at least 'til something goes wrong), but it introduces a "failure mode" that does not exist if the alternator is wired up as it was intended to be.

ANY fault, even a bit of resistance, in the charging circuit will cause the alternator's output current to take an alternate, undesirable path OUT of the alternator, through the diode trio and voltage regulator (which are not designed for this), and though the ignition switch's "ACC" terminal to get to finally get to the battery.

I repair alternators for a living, and have seen quite a few instances where repeat alternator failures were finally tracked down to the failure to use a lamp, resistor, or diode in the "switched excite" lead AND a fault in the charging circuit.

Several times, I've had to pack up some tools and go out in the field to see what was causing repeat failures, and, more than once it has been the lack of a device to limit or prevent current from feeding out of the alterntor's #1 terminal, BACK into the machine's electrical system.

So, sorry to disagree with your method, but I think wiring up an alternator in a way that will increase it's chance of failure is a BAD idea, especially when it is so easy to use a safer method.

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ron,ar

12-26-2006 08:15:58

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hi Bob in reply to Bob, 12-25-2006 22:37:00

I don't doubt your advice or expertise at all, in fact I have one of those 194 bulbs in my 48 N. I used a clearance light with a clear lens as it makes an excellent under the hood light for checking oil/fuel. I also have an 8N down at the farm that has the ACC setup and has been working fine since 1998 like that. I only suggested it because it worked for me and others in the past. Some folks don't like the key and push button system and understand the automotive type key/ign/ idea. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers but we ran several hundred of those 71 series detroits in very adverse conditions and they served us well. I can only report on what worked for us. I won't advise it again, but won't back off on the fact that we liked it enough to depend on it to make us a living. We made way more money if the equipment was up and running than if it was down for repairs.

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gee Bob,

12-26-2006 05:50:25

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Re: another option in reply to Bob, 12-25-2006 22:37:00

All I did was point out that ron,ar had be mislead by bad advice, and was now passing it on. I don't see how that is "trampled with both feet".

He's the one that started throwing insults around, not me.

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Jim West TN

12-26-2006 06:59:13

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Re: another option in reply to gee Bob, , 12-26-2006 05:50:25

Hi Georgia Peach from Douglasville, Georgia who doesn't have the guts to post with her name. Didn't your boy friend give you what you wanted for Christmas?

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No, but

12-26-2006 18:53:02

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Re: another option in reply to Jim West TN, 12-26-2006 06:59:13

I got what I wanted from your wife.

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duey

12-25-2006 11:22:52

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Re: couple of 12v questions in reply to ericlb, 12-25-2006 10:51:27

Not sure about the Jubilee mounts... but as far as the lamp goes, be sure you're using a two wire lamp assembly. If the light is set up to get its ground through its housing, that is NOT what you need. The bulb and socket need to have two contacts and wires.

Good luck & have Fun duey

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