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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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A question about oil pressure

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Pete in OH

04-24-2007 06:52:24




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Have an 8N running 20W50. At startup the oil pressure hangs around 40 lbs. After about 15 minutes it"s down to 10-15 lbs. Around 30 minutes it goes to zero. Not running a thermostat, but have one waiting to be installed. Is it possible that the engine never warms up enough to cause the oil additives to kick-in and "increase the viscosity"? Or is the oil pump bad and needs rebuilt? Or a little of both?

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DelD3

04-24-2007 14:12:42




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
There's those who think by reading on the can you can trust that 20W-50 is superior to running straight 40W. But like the old good book sez, run 40 in summer.

An oil engineer told me 20W-50 means it will never drop below 20WT if it's old oil or has heated too high. Personally, I think I'd rather have 40wt that I know will stay 40wt, especially with your readings. Your oil pump or bearings could be worn and might benefit from added viscosity.

If you've ever drained hot multi-vis, it's almost like water at times. Many old-timers too swear by single weight, especially on worn engines. Make sure your radiator is working well too. You could be getting too hot, making the multi-vis junk thin even more.

That's my two bits. I don't read cans or formulas. I trust experience from old timers. And like you, I got a field to plant.

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Dunk

04-24-2007 17:25:32




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to DelD3, 04-24-2007 14:12:42  
Iz that with a thermostat, or without one, or both?

If with is that with a 160°, or a 180°, or both?

Inquiring minds want to know...



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souNdguy

04-24-2007 12:53:59




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
I'll add one thing. If this is an old gauge.. get a new one. i've seen an old gauge be 4psi or MORE off. Lotsa difference between a tractor that shows 0 psi at hot idle, and one that has in reality 4 psi at hot idle. While 4psi is pretty dismal.. I think a swap to 40w or 50w oil would put of a rebuild for the casual parade driver.. or summer lawn mower for quite a few years if not more. Heck.. kendal makes a 60wt oil... If the bearings are worn.. they ain't gonna get better... as long as there is positive OP to protect the crank and she has power.. run her till you have time or can afford to rebuild her / get her rebuilt.. or replaced.. etc.

My 850 had lower OP than i wanted.. that is.. lower than my naa or my 660.( 50 - 40 psi throttle/idle hot ). but still above 20 psi at hot idle.. I went to 40w oil and now have a bit above 30 at hot idle.. was good enough for me..

soundguy

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Allthumbs

04-24-2007 12:37:41




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
I had the same understanding that you had about 20w50 and was going to switch from 30w to 20w50 but now what Dell and The Old Hokie have posted , I believe I will go with 40w for summer. I switched from 10w30 to 20w50 in my 85 S10 and noticed quite higher pressure, however, that is the same as switching from 10w to 20wt if I understand what Dell and Old Hokie are saying. Regards from a fellow 'turnip'.

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TheOldHokie

04-24-2007 14:16:42




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 Nope - that's not what I was saying in reply to Allthumbs, 04-24-2007 12:37:41  
From a purely SAE specification perspective switching from SAE 10W30 to SAE 20W50 is equivalent to both:
  1. switching from SAE 10W to SAE 20W WRT cold temp pumping properties AND
  2. switching from SAE 30 to SAE 50 WRT hot temp pumping and shear protection performance.
Go look at the SAE specs (chart way down in the middle) in the link I provided. There are TWO DIFFERENT SAE viscosity specs for oil and they are entirely different animals. Comparing a SAE 20W grade to a SAE 20 grade is meaningless - it's apples and oranges. A multigrade simply meets both specs and a single grade only meets one. Many multigrades use additives to achieve that extra performance and if you're concerned about the side effects then don't use them. But the SAE spec doesn't give a rats behind - it just quantifies the actual viscosity of the oil in a specifc temperature range. The fact that a multigrade may be formulated using a lighter base oil with additives means no more to me than the fact that the -30°F coolant in my car radiator started out as pure H2O with a freezing point of 32°F before I added the ethylene glycol.

TOH

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Willy-N

04-24-2007 08:36:08




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
Run straite 30 WT and see what happens. Cold oil is realy thick and will allways give you a high reading. Tolerances change once things warm up good and gaps get bigger ect causing the pressure to drop. I would think your bearings need replacing. A new spring might be in order for the Oil Bypass Valve along with the rod that goes in it. If it has worn down some it might not seat as good. But oil pressure droping a lot on warm up is not a good sign and normaly means worn/bad bearings. Mark H.

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Pete in OH

04-24-2007 07:16:11




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
I was running straight 30 in it before. It did the same thing. I was hoping the 20W50 would at least let her keep 5-10 lbs when fully warm.



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Dell (WA)

04-24-2007 08:23:41




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 07:16:11  
Pete..... ..you changed from 30wt oil to 20wt oil and wonder why yer oilpressure drops when the engine oil warms up? Were you born under the cabbage leaves or just bounced off'n the turnip truck?

20-50wt oil is 20wt oil; plus additives.

Ain't NO law that sez you can't use straight 40wt detergent oil. Infact yer 1939 Ford oil specs sez to use 40wt oil in summertime. And iff'n 40wt oil don't keep yer hot oilpressure where you are happy, use 50wt oil. Simple, eh?..... ..Dell who understands and knows how to read oil specifications

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TheOldHokie

04-24-2007 10:23:26




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Dell (WA), 04-24-2007 08:23:41  
With all due respect read this (specifically the chart specifying the physical properties of the various SAE grades) and tell me which has a higher resistance to pumping at engine temp, SAE 20W50 or SAE 30:

Some Physical Science and the SAE Grade Specifications

TOH



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Dell (WA)

04-24-2007 11:09:37




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to TheOldHokie, 04-24-2007 10:23:26  
TOH..... .ain't gonna gitt into p1$$ing match with you about oil specifications. I wrote..... "20-50wt oil is 20wt oil; plus additives"..... ..I didn't describe what the additives do with respect to temperature. I didn't think I needed to, as I didn't think it was germane to the topic ..... ..respectfully, Dell who knows how to read and understand oil specifications



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Pete in OH

04-24-2007 11:56:13




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Dell (WA), 04-24-2007 11:09:37  
"Were you born under the cabbage leaves or just bounced off'n the turnip truck?"

Respectfully, I do think what the additives do is germane to the topic. That's why I originally asked if anyone thought the lack of a thermostat was not allowing the engine to warm up enough to let the additives do their thing. I may not have worded it correctly.

Regardless of all that, I just need to cut my 12 acre field this weekend. I'd like to do it without destroying my N. Was hoping to get some ideas to get it through the weekend.

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TheOldHokie

04-24-2007 11:44:29




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Dell (WA), 04-24-2007 11:09:37  
Come on Dell - you also wrote:

Pete..... ..you changed from 30wt oil to 20wt oil and wonder why yer oilpressure drops when the engine oil warms up? Were you born under the cabbage leaves or just bounced off'n the turnip truck?

I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match as you say - just trying to get the facts right. What the additives due is 100% germane to the question.

TOH

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TheOldHokie

04-24-2007 07:21:21




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 07:16:11  
I don't think it's a viscosity issue - I think it's mechanical from the description.

TOH



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TheOldHokie

04-24-2007 06:59:01




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to Pete in OH, 04-24-2007 06:52:24  
Is it possible that the engine never warms up enough to cause the oil additives to kick-in and "increase the viscosity"?

No. The additives don't increase the viscosity - they slow down the rate the oil thins as it warms up. It's as thick as it's going to get at startup.

Something else is going on. You could try a single grade to see what happens but my guess is it won't change the overall problem. I'd check the relief valve operation if it were me.

TOH

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A. Bohemian

04-24-2007 07:31:02




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 Re: A question about oil pressure in reply to TheOldHokie, 04-24-2007 06:59:01  
Old Hoakie knows his stuff. Check that relief valve. If the relief valve checks out ok, try a different gauge.

But just in case everything checks out ok (and I bet it all will), read on.

These tractors are all more than fifty years old. On an older vehicle, oil pressure that goes ABSOLUTELY to zero is one of the things that will make me start to think about a rebuild.

Another is bad compression numbers. If the oil relief valve and pressure guage is ok, and no one else has a better suggestion, do a compression check. I don't think low compression will CAUSE low oil pressure, but low oil pressure and low compression TOGETHER often indicate a rebuild is necessary where one factor by itself might not.

However, if the oil pressure is dropping to say, ten pounds or so at idle after warmup, and not completely to zero; and rebounds immdediately as soon as the revs increase, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Pretty much all older engines to that.

Above all, DO NOT operate the tractor for any length of time with zero PSI. Especially under load.

Unless it is a trailor queen, a tractor that has NO oil pressure is almost useless. You can't use if for any work to speak of, unless it's moving equipment around in the yard, pull-starting another tractor, or other tasks that can be completed before the engine reaches operating temperature. And, a list of these tasks is pretty short around most operations.

My sister, a surgeon who is also an excellent diagnostician, always says, "When you see (manure), look for a horse, not a zebra." In this case, a simple fix is the zebra. I'm afraid you're looking right at a horse.

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