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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Hokie...gotta question fer ya

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arthur ward

06-19-2007 22:08:11




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Will sae 30 oil give the same or different oil pressure as 10w30 oil at start up, normal operating temperature and hot like as in just done with field work in the same engine? Being that it is actually a sae 10 oil that will only get as thin as sae 30 at operating temperature?




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JimSC

06-20-2007 17:52:32




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to arthur ward, 06-19-2007 22:08:11  
WOW! Lotta info here. Thanks.I may have to move to 40 weight, hmmm....maybe 50 next.



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arthur ward

06-20-2007 12:21:36




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to arthur ward, 06-19-2007 22:08:11  
ok, that clears things up some.
however, LOL, one would think that an s.a.e. 30 would be good for the field work in summer and a 10W30 of the same brand would be good for the winter. winter temps range from -5 to 35 F. i don't think many of us yanks use tractors to plow snow when it is colder.

so what do you think?
thanks



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TheOldHokie

06-20-2007 16:07:42




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to arthur ward, 06-20-2007 12:21:36  
I think you've got it.

TOH



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Brian Bell

06-20-2007 07:15:23




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to arthur ward, 06-19-2007 22:08:11  
Hokie, can you provide me a link to your site. I'm always up for a good informative read.



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TheOldHokie

06-20-2007 05:15:12




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to arthur ward, 06-19-2007 22:08:11  
Please read the discussion on my web site - all of it - even if it makes your head hurt and your eyes glaze over. Based on that question I suspect you have not. The last section of that document directly addresses this qustion but I will try to the best of my ability to at least partially answer it here. The answer is a weasely "yes and no" and here's why:

It is technically incorrect and very misleading to say that an SAE 10W30 is "really an SAE 10 oil". It is REALLY an SAE 30 oil. And it is REALLY an SAE 10W oil. Pay attention to the "W" - it is important and has a very specific meaning. SAE 10W is not the same as SAE 10 - the SAE 10 grade no longer even exists in the motor oil standard!

An SAE 30 oil is the GRADE STAMP given a motor oil that has a kinematic viscosity in the range 9.3-12.5 cSt measured ta 100C and a high shear viscosity in the range 2.9-3.7 cP measured at 150C. That's it - period. This grade stamp indicates the oil will provide good engine protection under normal operatng conditions and temperatures. Any oil graded SAE 30 has that viscosity, whether its SAE 30 or SAE 10W30. And at engine operating temperature either oil will produce very similar oil pressures in any given motor.

An SAE 10W oil is the GRADE STAMP given a motor oil that has a Cold Cranking Viscosity of NO MORE than 7000 cP when slowly chilled over the course of two days to -25C and measured in a cold cranking simulator. It must also have a pumping viscosity of NO MORE than 60,000 cP when slowly chilled to -30C and measured in a cold pumping simulator as well. This grade stamp indicates the oil will remain in a pumpable state in cold conditions, will flow readily on initial cold startup, and is suitable for use in near or below freezing conditions. Any oil graded SAE 10W has these properties whether it's a SAE 10W or an SAE 10W30.
The cold temperature grades and the hot temperature grades are TWO SEPARATE PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS and cannot be compared with one another. An oil graded SAE 30 does not meet ANY of the SAE cold weather performance standards and as such is poorly suited for cold weather use. The product data sheets for such an oil will not list the cold weather test results. Likewise an oil graded SAE 10W does not meet ANY of the SAE hot temperature performance standards and is a poor choice for warm weather use. The product data sheets for it will not list any hot performance test results.

Hope this helps,

TOH

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ZANE

06-20-2007 06:16:21




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to TheOldHokie, 06-20-2007 05:15:12  
Does this mean that SAE 30 will have the same kenitic properties at 150C as SAE 10W30?????

Zane



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TheOldHokie

06-20-2007 07:45:36




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 Re: Hokie...gotta question fer ya in reply to ZANE, 06-20-2007 06:16:21  

ZANE said: (quoted from post at 06:16:21 06/20/07) Does this mean that SAE 30 will have the same kenitic properties at 150C as SAE 10W30?????

Zane


No. As near as I can tell short of purchasing a copy the current SAE motor oil specification (J300, 1999) is strictly a viscosity standard. It specifies a permissible range for two high temperature properties - high temperature kinematic viscosity and high shear/high temperature dynamic viscosity. It says nothing about other properties of the oil. It's the motor oil equivalent of Prime, Choice and Utility meat grades. The API service class specification does however address other properties.

The requirement for an SAE 30 grade oil is a kinematic viscosity in the range 9.3-12.5 cSt @100C and a high shear viscosity in the range 2.9-3.7 cP @150C. The requirements are the same for monograde and multigrade oils. The tests are ASTM specified procedures that place the heated oil in a heated metal stator and measure the torque required to spin a heated metal rotor immersed in the oil. The kinematic test is low rpm and high stator clearance - something on the order of a couple RPM and .002" IIRC. The shear test is high RPM and low clearance - on the order of .0005"and 3600 RPM. The idea is to simulate the operating conditions inside the motor.

A multigrade oil is simply any oil that can also meet one of the cold temperature standards. A monograde cannot. Given a multigrade and a monograde that have the same high temperature grade stamp it is not possible to predict which has the higher hot viscosity. Some mongrades will be slightly higher than some multigrades and vice-versa. It varies from individual product to product but they will all be in that range. You have to get the product data sheets for each brand name and compare the actual test numbers to see how they compare to one another. The data sheets usually give the kinematic viscosity @40C and the viscosity indices as well which lets you extrapolate viscosities at other temps. Unfortunately they do not have full viscosity curves.What you do know from the grade however is that a nnW40 for example will always be higher than any multigrade or monograde 30. The current J300 grade table and a bit of history on how and why it has evolved since its inception in 1911 can be found in my little independent research paper here:

Link

It's tough to get got solid scientific info - the friggin SAE and ASTM pubs are all expensive. And the few I've purchased are usually rife with references to others I don't own - ARGGG! Feel free to comment and if you find any factual errors or you have additional info please let me know. I'm afraid I did let a bit of personal opinion slip in at the end....

TOH

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