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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Tore down the transmission tonight

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Dan

08-01-2007 16:24:20




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Got home a little early tonight, and decided to tackle the transmission on my 1939 9N. I already had that section seperated and on the floor, so all I had to do was dissassemble it and pull the gears out. This tranny was very noisy when I drove it for the test drive before buying, so I expected the bearings to be shot. Surprisingly, the bearings were in great shape and almost like new, even more surprisingly, they had the Ford script on them and the part number (and Timken stamp as well). Not sure if they are the originals, but very old none the less to be in such good shape. The main shaft came out - and so did the rear bearing! It just slipped right off the shaft, so I tested the front pilot bearing, same thing. Now I am assuming they should be fairly tight on the shaft, so I will need to address that. All the cups have slight pitting, so I will replace those. The gears were in grear shape except the far rear gear on the bottom shaft, there were some teeth that were chipped pretty bad - but only in one area. The bearings on the bottom shaft are in good shape and tight on the shaft.

Still baffled at why the tranny was so loud, I turned over the main shaft (which looked to be in excellent shape) and there it was. It didn't look like pitting, it looked like gouges all around the circumference Like the bearing was wobbling around inside there. Now, seeing as this is a '39 with a straight cut gear on the end, finding a new one will be daunting to say the least. Any ideas on how to maybe fill these gouges and smooth down flush with the rest of the surface?

Also, any ideas on what to do about the bearings that are loose on the main shaft? Loctite?

TIA,
Dan

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Walter Buller

08-02-2007 09:04:11




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
If you can find a salesman with Bowman Distribution you can get welding rods that have a tensile strength of over 180,000 psi that are used, among other things, for building up the surfaces of machine tools and then grinding down to specs. Should be more than adequate for your gear. Bowman is headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio and is part of the Barnes group. There is also a company in Baker, Louisiana called Baton Rouge Industries that ships lubricants and fuel additives worldwide. I have used them and found that they are a breed apart. Absolutely unbelievable stuff. Like tractor lubricants that will not mix with water no matter what and with the highest film strength known to man. When you are using this stuff there is never any metal to metal contact of any kind, cold, hot, at startup or after all day of heavy use, doesn't matter. If you want to virtually eliminate any and all wear and tear on engine, tranny or rear end parts and make them last forever, this is the stuff to use.

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alg

08-02-2007 02:37:34




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
Dan, Tony's phone number is 413-267-5087.



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Dan

08-02-2007 04:42:54




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to alg, 08-02-2007 02:37:34  
Thanks bud!

Dan



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RJ

08-01-2007 20:52:40




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 Is this the shaft? in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
Link



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Dan

08-02-2007 04:40:32




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 Re: Is this the shaft? in reply to RJ, 08-01-2007 20:52:40  
Yes it is, thanks for the link.

Dan



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RJ

08-02-2007 09:20:54




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 Re: Is this the shaft? in reply to Dan, 08-02-2007 04:40:32  
Glad to be of any help, I bought my oil pan, front axle and spindle steering arm from him, he made a good deal with fair and fast shipping. RJ



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McNugget

08-01-2007 17:59:29




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
Me thinks the reason that is not a replaceable cone is due to how thin the gear would be and the needed strength. The material has to be hard - that surface was ground after hardening, i.e. bronze from brazing and typical welding isn"t going to work there.

A machine shop might offer to grind it deeper and you could hope to shim every thing to make up the loss. I have yet to find a source to repair the output shaft of a step-up Sherman.

For what it is worth, New Holland has a replacement output shaft for the Sherman combo transmission (C3NN7015D - see John Smith"s site for more information on rebuilding transmissions).

Keep us posted on what you find. Probably the fast track is going to the next generation gears as you"ll have more input options (later 9N, 2N, 8N) and all the later 9N, 2N countershafts to pick from.

Hang in there!

McNugget

P.S. I"d also echo the need to replace the cups AND the cones on the other shaft ends.

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Dan

08-01-2007 18:11:42




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to McNugget, 08-01-2007 17:59:29  
Good input - I appreciate it. I guess I will go ahead and pull the bearings off and replace, as I Know I will replace the cups. As far as the input shaft, I am pretty stubborn about trying to keep it original, so I will either try to fix it, rig it, or find/wait for a replacement to show up. I bought a early 9N input shaft off eBay a few weeks back for a song, but the gear and inside cup is pitted badly. Not as deep as my original, but small pits all over the inside surface. I may use that one for experimentation. I know a few people who are parting out early 9Ns, so I may get lucky again on parts if I have to replace.

I did look at the possibility of shaving it down - there is some room to work with there. But unfortunately, the gouges are pretty deep and I fear I do not have enough material to shave off before the pilot bearing is rubbing on the end of the shaft.

I am in no hurry (even though it seems like it), so if the tranny takes a good while to complete, I am ok with that.

Thanks again for the wisdom,
Dan

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jimNCal

08-01-2007 18:05:47




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to McNugget, 08-01-2007 17:59:29  
FWIW, I know a good source for the output shafts for Sherman transmissions. They are foreign made of very good quality and I've had good feedback on their performance(so far).



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Roger in Iowa

08-01-2007 16:52:48




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
If the cups are pitted you need to replace them AND the BEARINGS! Remember the bearings have been encountering the cups to cause the damage. Waste of time and money if you don't.

Roger in Iowa



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Joe (IN)

08-01-2007 16:48:57




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
My experience has been that when you find the bearings are no longer a press fit onto the shaft, the preload has been set too tight and they've spun on the shaft. I've seen this a couple of times on Sherman-equipped trannys. I think many of them get put together too tight and you are holding the result in your hand. I know you didn't have a Sherman, but it's been assembled tight irregardless. LocTite makes a ridiculously strong sleeve retainer that will require a press to disassemble. I can't remember what the number is off the top of my head. Check with a LocTite dealer and order the strongest sleeve retainer they've got. I'd like to see the damage you are describing on the front of the mainshaft first, but were it me, I'd find a replacement given the damage AND the worn bearing locations. I know you want to keep it all original '39, but you can use a mainshaft out of any 9N or 2N so long as you also use the input shaft out of a later machine. Nobody will ever now what parts are in the belly but you. If you want to go this route, I might be able to help you out with a shaft. I've got an early 2N tranny that I'm going to carve up for parts.

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GB in MT.

08-01-2007 16:45:28




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 Re: Tore down the transmission tonight in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
Dan;

I saw a post by Jim.UT, where he has the whole tranny for sale, out of an Early 9N.
Check out his post, (what would you pay?), on yesterday, July 31, 2007.
If ya need parts, contact him.

Gary



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Dan

08-01-2007 16:39:32




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 Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:24:20  
third party image

Kinda hard to see the detail in this small picture, but you can get an idea.



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TheOldHokie

08-01-2007 17:12:58




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:39:32  
Are you saying the race for the mainshaft front bearing is machined into the gear? And the gear is integral to the input shaft? I've had it out but I never paid any attention to the detail.

TOH



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Dan

08-01-2007 17:30:09




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-01-2007 17:12:58  
Yes - all input shafts I have seen (9N to NAA) are made this way. Not sure WHY Ford never made a replaceable cup here, but because of this, most races you see on the inside of the input shaft has some level of pitting. It is really a shame, other than this band, the rest of the surface is in really good shape.

Dan



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TheOldHokie

08-02-2007 05:13:08




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:30:09  
Dang - not the best idea in the world but I guess as long as replacement shafts were available not too egregious. My first thought was to counterbore for a new press in race but I don't think there's enough meat on that gear - the counterbore would probably have to be big enough it would get into the root of the gear teeth. The "proper" repair would be some sort of metal spray buildup, regrind, and hardening. My WAG is something like $150 and that's with an emphasis on the "W". But heck - take it by a well equipped MODERN machine shop and grovel - that's usually free ;-)

TOH

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jimNCal

08-01-2007 19:50:35




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:30:09  
Some time ago, I was talking with Tony Jacobs about Shermans and he mentioned a place he had seen a PILE of Ford input shafts that were the resultant leftovers from Sherman installs. He indicated regret/no interest due to the fact that MOST were the straight-cut output shafts from early 9N's and thus, of little use to us now-days.

You might want to contact him to see if they may still be available.

jim

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Dan

08-01-2007 20:23:55




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to jimNCal, 08-01-2007 19:50:35  
Do you have any contact info for Tony?

Dan



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soundguy

08-01-2007 16:53:39




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 16:39:32  
Difficult but not impossible. Will require a machinist. This will be one of those jobs where the repair will cost more thant he item is worth.. however.. if a suitable replacement is not found.. you have little choice.

Depending onthe area.. I'd say braze and machine true.. or weld and machine.. Hard to tell how thick / deep it is. but you might even be able to turn it down a few thousanths and find a speedi sleave to go in there and secure it with sleave retainer.. after filling the pits with silver solder or braze.. etc.

As for the loose caps? speedi sleave comes to ming again..

I betcha a working drop-in trans may be cheaper and easier..

good luck!

Soundguy

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Dan

08-01-2007 17:04:19




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to soundguy, 08-01-2007 16:53:39  
Do they make speedy sleeves in a cone shape to fit into cups?

Dan



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russ b

08-01-2007 17:29:27




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:04:19  
From the pix I couldn't tell if it was cone shaped. Just curious if it really is.



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Dan

08-01-2007 17:31:00




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to russ b, 08-01-2007 17:29:27  
It is. It fits perfectly to the cone shaped pilot bearing.

Dan



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russ b

08-01-2007 18:16:44




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:31:00  
If it is a shallow taper, maybe it can be turned out straight and press fitted with an insert. I hate to see anything like that go to the scrap pile. Thanks for the clarification.



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soundguy

08-01-2007 17:07:05




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:04:19  
I doubt it.. but you never know. Again.. it might be a weld and machine type of deal..

Soundguy



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Dan

08-01-2007 17:18:56




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to soundguy, 08-01-2007 17:07:05  
What do you think about the possibility of machining the inside flat to accept a normal press in cup? I would think that would be easier to machine instead of trying to cut a cone shape on a lathe(?)

Dan



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soundguy

08-01-2007 17:23:42




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 Re: Pic of the damage in reply to Dan, 08-01-2007 17:18:56  
A good machine shop should be able to cut the cone.. however.. I had also thought about what you mention.. and guess that would be even easier..

It will be labor intensive either way.. I'd try to preserve as much metal as possible, while still adressing the problem.. obviously you will be compromising somewhere.

Soundguy



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