Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
:

Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc...

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
A. Bohemian

08-29-2007 07:45:56




Report to Moderator

First of all, I am not thinking of doing a 12-volt conversion! I have am VERY satisfied with the six-volt system in my Super C.

But if I can get the correct answer to this, it may allow me to help others with some of the most commonly asked questions.

I know the orginal Ford ignition system dissiapated about eighteen watts in the circuit of the coil primary.

P = I x E
P = 3 x 6
P = 18

Shouldn't a properly-done twelve volt conversion dissipate the same amount (surely it couldn't dissipate much less!)?

In that case, what should the dashboard ammeter read? Since we orginally had six volts at three amps, and we now have 12 volts, shouldn't the ammeter read an amp and a half to give us our eighteen watts?

18 = I x 12
18/12 = I
I = 1.5

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Bruce (VA)

08-29-2007 13:38:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc. in reply to A. Bohemian, 08-29-2007 07:45:56  
I've got nothing to add to what the others said..... except to point out my agreement w/ Dell's comment about converting to 12v for the right reasons. If you haven't done so, check out the two articles on the link below.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dell (WA)

08-29-2007 08:16:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc. in reply to A. Bohemian, 08-29-2007 07:45:56  
Bohemian..... ...your math is correct, yer logic is correct, but yer understanding is faulty.

In the original 6-volt ignition system, TOTAL resistance sets the total current. I=E/R (Ohms Law) Iff'n ohms stay constant, and you increase volts, AMPS gotta increase (and POWER gotta increase too)

The ignition points (switch contacts) actually set the 3-amp requirement, called "area rule". More amps, bigger points required. This is true for mega-volt electrical power systems too. They gotts some really big contacts switches.

So to take advantage of the 3-amp rule, 12-volt ignition coils have higher primary winding resistance than 6-volt coils. The greater 12-volt winding creates a stronger internal magnetic field that creates HOTTER SPARKIES.

Yes, you can use a 12-to-6 volt converting resistor with a 6-volt coil and get acceptable 12-volt ignition operation (3-amps), but why? You LOOSE the 12-volt HOTTER SPARKIE advantage for better ignition operation.

The "only advantage" of using a 12-to-6-volt converting resistor ...is... its cheaper than buying a new 12-volt coil. Me? I like hotter sparkies..... ..Dell, a 12-volt advocate for the right reasons

That said, I haven't found the right reason for my eazy starting 6-volt 52-8N, and I know how to do it right the first time. Infact I know 8-ways to do it and they all work.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
9NJoe

08-29-2007 07:50:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc. in reply to A. Bohemian, 08-29-2007 07:45:56  
You are a little off in your calculations. Dont forget the drop from the infamous balast resistor.

P=I*E=3*3=9 watts. the coil does not see the full six volts, the balast resistor drops the voltage to about 3 volts.

Joe



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

08-29-2007 10:27:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc. in reply to 9NJoe, 08-29-2007 07:50:44  
9njoe. Bob and Dell are correct.

A.Bohem made mention of how much energy the ignition disipated. that would take into account any series primary resistances AND the coil.. not just the coil.

Bob gave a good breakdown.. etc.

soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
A. Bohemian

08-29-2007 14:58:18




Report to Moderator
 Yes. in reply to soundguy, 08-29-2007 10:27:49  
Quote: ''A.Bohem made mention of how much energy the ignition disipated. that would take into account any series primary resistances AND the coil.. not just the coil.''

Quite right. I was thinking of the SYSTEM current which is of course displayed by the ammeter, including the ballast resistor.

To approach the same question from a different angle, what does a dashboard ammeter read with a correctly designed twelve-volt conversion?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

08-30-2007 06:35:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Yes. in reply to A. Bohemian, 08-29-2007 14:58:18  
As OK aluded to... E=IR is going to be the main determining factor of what the ammeter reads. The points will still be a 'waek link' in that they won't like to see much more than 3-4a

Couple that with a non precision ammeter movement.. and it's gonne be hard to tell if your ammeter is reading between 1.5-4a in most cases... especially the old loop meters..e tc.

All said.. your choice of coil and any resistors inline, and condition of all electrical connections, exact votlage of the charge system, etc.. all those will be variables for the ohms law equation.. etc.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
OKDAD

08-29-2007 23:23:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Yes. in reply to A. Bohemian, 08-29-2007 14:58:18  
Hi Bohemian,
You pose an interesting question but I have one for you...Can you define "A correctly designed 12 volt system"?

The current draw by the ignition system is dictated by the battery voltage divided by the resistance of the coil, ballast resistor(s), wiring, and electrical connections. If you double the battery voltage then the resistance will need to double to keep the voltage constant thru the coil. This is why most 12v systems add another ballast resistor. The current draw shown on the meter would be the same.

Ike

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

08-29-2007 08:05:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Theoretical Question for Dell, souNdguy, Bruce(VA), etc. in reply to 9NJoe, 08-29-2007 07:50:44  
Exactly. You need to ADD the watts dissipated by the coil, as well as the watts dissipated by the ballast resistor, as well as the watts dissipated by the 6-12-Volt "converting resistor".

ASSUMUMING the original 6-Volt coil is retained for the 12-Volt conversion, the coil is "seeing" the same voltage and current as it did in the 6-Volt system, and the "converting resistor" is dissipating about the same wattage as the coil and orignal ballast resistor together.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy