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1949 8N with No Spark

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Bob R

09-07-2007 18:47:56

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I have a 1949 8N yhat has been running good for years but stopped suddenly as if the ignition had been turned off. Checked for Spark an found none. It is a front mount 6v original type system. Checked the points and found them pitted. I Replaced Points, Condenser, Coil Ignition switch and the resister on the terminal block. No Spark! Checked voltage at top of coil and it read 6v. I thought the resistor should have dropped the voltage to something less than that. What should be the voltage at the top of the coil? Can 6v input fry one of these coils? I think they are rather touchy and can easily be destroyed. Have worked on this issue for way to many hours and still have no spark. Any suggestions?

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A. Bohemian

09-08-2007 08:11:07

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Phone Call for Dashboard Ammeter! in reply to Bob R, 09-07-2007 18:47:56

Turn on your ignition without cranking. You should see three amps discharge on your dashboard ammeter. (This current reading will tell you everything voltage or resistance readings can tell you, and you obtain it EFFORTLESSLY and INSTANTLY every time you throw the switch!)

So throw the switch and look for a three amp discharge. But I suspect you won"t see any discharge, since you are seeing the full six volts across the coil primary.

This means (a) no current is flowing in the coil primary circuit, and (b) the fault is not between the battery and the coil connection where you are finding the voltage.

Either the coil primary is open, the coil terminals are not making good contact, the points are not closing properly (check the distributor for bushing wear), the points are defective (yes, they can be bad right out of the box), the points are not installed properly, or the ground connection for the points is no good.

Quote: "I Replaced Points, Condenser, Coil Ignition switch and the resister on the terminal block...Have worked on this issue for way to many hours and still have no spark."

You have learned an important lesson in Kettering ignition repair. Blindly replacing things rarely produces results. You must spend a little time first running tests until you FIND the bad component! "All else confusion..."

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Bob R

09-14-2007 18:58:33

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Re: Phone Call for Dashboard Ammeter! in reply to A. Bohemian, 09-08-2007 08:11:07

Well, I havent had a working ammeter since I bought the tractor. Guess I will have to get one and instaLL it for your test. As far as the wholesale addition of new parts they were added as other new parts did not solve the problem. I am not blessed with a lot of electrical test meters so I followed the path of lest expense to highest expense in replacing parts. The ignition switch was replaced due to loss of the old keys. I did purchase a relatively inexpensive volt meter which is how I found that the coil supply wire was giving the coil 6v. However, once the coil is assembled to the distributor the voltage at the top of the coil reads about 2v, which indicates the resistor is doing it's job ok. The only thing is that if I rotate the distributor shaft manualy (with the distributor fully assembled) I never see a fluctuation in the voltage. I thought I should see an increase to 6v whenever the points open. Is this correct? Any way I have found a mechanic who is about as old as I am who has had lots of experience with 8N tractors and he is going to bench trest the assembly for me and try to assess the problem. By the way, have you or any of the other guys had any experience with the electronic ignition conversion kits shown in the ignition parts lists on this web site? It looks like I can get a 6v kit for about $160. If it will work and be servicable for a significant period of time it may be worth it. I realy need my tractor to do work around my place.

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Jack - Illinois

09-08-2007 10:57:14

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Re: Phone Call for Dashboard Ammeter! in reply to A. Bohemian, 09-08-2007 08:11:07

A. Bohemian Says, "You have learned an important lesson in Kettering ignition repair. Blindly replacing things rarely produces results. You must spend a little time first running tests until you FIND the bad component! "All else confusion..."

Amen to that - I hate wholesale replacement as a fix!!!! If it ain't broke you can't fix it, so leave it be.

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wont let me use my name

09-07-2007 21:07:44

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Bob R, 09-07-2007 18:47:56

You may not believe me on this one.....but please try it because it worked for me.....if you a pasitive ground 6 volt you "ground" should connect at the bottom of the steering column inside the engine area. Remove the bolt....clean the cable and its contact area and then reconnect! I tested my coil... had power there but still no spark! I know it sounds too simple....but cleaning the "ground" worked for me.

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Bob R

09-08-2007 04:11:53

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to wont let me use my name, 09-07-2007 21:07:44

Thanks,I will try this and see if it changes anything. It is too simple not to try.

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soundguy

09-07-2007 20:51:30

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Bob R, 09-07-2007 18:47:56

Ditto what the others said.

On the new coil, gently stretch the pig tail spring to make sure it makes contact with the points screw.

Also make sure your points didn't close up and that the rotor fits on tight.

soundguy

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Bob R

09-08-2007 04:16:15

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to soundguy, 09-07-2007 20:51:30

Thanks, I know the pig tail spring is making contact. Have checked the points and they have not slipped. Still show a .015 clearance.

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soundguy

09-08-2007 10:09:02

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Bob R, 09-08-2007 04:16:15

If your points are opening and closing, and you know you are getting good coil contact, verify good clean power connections from the key switch, and resistor, to the top of the coil, and verify the voltage changes from battery volts to say.. 3 volts or so as you crank the engine over. If that happens.. then the last thing to look at is the distribuitor cap and rotor. Make sure the rotor is not cracked and grounfing out the spark to the distrib shaft.

If the voltage on the coil stays low.. check condensor, and around breaker plate for a short.

soundguy

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Jack - Illinois

09-07-2007 20:00:35

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Bob R, 09-07-2007 18:47:56

If the points are open you will read 6 volts at the top of the coil. If you are sure the points are closed then it should be around 3.5 volts give or take. The pigtail on the bottom of the coil may not be making contact either. But yes an open coil with all other things OK would give 6 volts at the top because it is providing no load to cause a drop across the resistor.

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Bob R

09-08-2007 04:19:31

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Jack - Illinois, 09-07-2007 20:00:35

Thanks, I will check the voltage at the top of the coil when points are closed just to make sure the resister is doing what it should.

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Briar Creek Stables

09-07-2007 19:51:04

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Bob R, 09-07-2007 18:47:56

Did you change the distributer cap? Distributer caps can over time develop a carbon trail between wire terminals. A bad enough trail between the coil input and a ground will prevent the spark from reaching the plugs. Electricity follows the easiest access to the ground.

If this isn't the problem you may want to check the wire going from the coil back to the ignition.

If you have a 6 volt system and 6 volt battery you don't need the resister. If that is the case, bypass the resister and turn it over...see if it starts. My 2n had a resister on it and using a 6 volt battery it would never start.

The carbon trail in distributers usually can not be seen by the naked eye. The carbon is burnt into the plastic and there is no way to remove it. Less severe cases usually cause the engine to skip bad and you can usually hear a clicking noise comeing from the distributer cap. The clicking (or snaping) noise is the electricity taking a ride down the carbon trail.

Not sure if any of this helps

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Bob R

09-08-2007 04:29:20

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Re: 1949 8N with No Spark in reply to Briar Creek Stables, 09-07-2007 19:51:04

Thanks, I forgot to mention that I have put on a new roter and distributor cap as well so the rotor fit is good and there should be no carbon trail. Is it possible that the insulation on the capacitor screw mount has deteriorated and is causing a short? The copper strap between the capicitor screw and the points screw had broken and in fact part of it was missing. That accounts for the sudden quit. Made a new strap and put it in place but still no spark. Is it possible to purchase a new point mounting plate for that distributor?

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