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Zane Thang relief?

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JMOR

10-14-2007 09:45:59

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So, where does external pump flow go when lift ram reached limit of travel, if not the overpressure relief valve? ( No external cylinders in system)

ZANE

10-07-2006 16:01:18
152.163.100.10
571875

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Without any extra parts it is not possible to use the hydraulics and a control valve to operate remote cylinders etc.

It is possible to operate a one way/single acting cylinder by tying the three point hitch down and tapping into the test port of the pump and operating the remote cylinder with the touch control handle but it is not accurate or good for the lift. When the remote cylinder etc reaches it's maximum extension the relief valve of the pump is opened and repeatedly doing this will quickly errode the relief valve components and then the lift will become weaker and weaker.

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Joe T (CO)

10-17-2007 11:06:33

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to JACKIE72, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

TheOldHokie said: (quoted from post at 16:47:13 10/17/07) I'm certainly not offended but could you expound on that - Inlet/Intake, Outlet/Exhaust - arrgh! Ok I'm up to speed and I think we are speaking the same language now - thank you. I also went back and read some of the archived exchanges from Llamas, tOTG, and Zane about this. TOTG had a mod for isolating the lift circuit from the rest of that mechanism altogether and controlling it with an external valve - I had his writeup on it once but I''ve lost it and tOTG's web site is long gone. I've posted in the past asking for someone with a copy to make it available but no one has come forward. I pretty much remember what he said to do and can probably reconstruct it from memory. It's a modestly aggresive mod to the top cover - probably not for the faint of heart or poorly equipped.

Back to the Live Thang - assume an 8N in position control mode.

As soon as the lift hits the top (or is set to an intermediate position) the position control mechanism is going to try and twiddle the valving on the fly to keep the lift at a constant height independent of the pressure relief condition. So as soon as the constant external pump flow starts to cause the lift to raise the exhaust valve will be cracked to cause it to lower - right? If the implement drops for some reason the exahust will begin to close and the choked off external flow will cause it to raise. The cycle repeats. Have we substituted erosion of the exhaust for the relief? And what happens in draft mode(aka on a 9N/2N)?

Perhaps this thread should be retitled "The blind leading the blind"

TOH

You can find old web page archives using the wayback machine.

Here are the search results for www.totg.biz,

I dont know if it contains what you are looking for.

Joe

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.totg.biz

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TheOldHokie

10-17-2007 11:30:40

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to Joe T (CO), 10-17-2007 11:06:33

Thank you Sherman!

The 2003 pages have the format I remember but alas the particular page I'm looking for is not there.
TOH

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Dunk

10-16-2007 18:34:39

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

LMAO!!!!

Curious minds want to know!!

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Dunk

10-16-2007 18:06:09

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

I totally understand what you are asking.

I don't know!!

But, now, that said, popping the relief should not be a problem if the sump is good and clean, it should be able to pop at designated pressure constantly.

Not just once, BUT until the parts wear, or the spring is not up to snuff.

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Dunk

10-16-2007 17:13:11

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

I still can't totally answer your question about holding position though.

I do understand what you are asking.

I'll have to guess that the springs, and the lift control lever, and pin, and piston, just all work together.

Harry Ferguson was an amazingly intelligent individual.

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Dunk

10-16-2007 17:07:18

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

Yes JMOR, realize that there is a pin on the lift control lever that contacts the piston skirt when it starts coming out of the cylinder.

Check this out.

third party image

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Joe T (CO)

10-16-2007 16:47:59

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to ZANE, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

JMOR said: (quoted from post at 17:45:59 10/14/07) So, where does external pump flow go when lift ram reached limit of travel, if not the overpressure relief valve? ( No external cylinders in system)

ZANE

10-07-2006 16:01:18

152.163.100.10

571875

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Without any extra parts it is not possible to use the hydraulics and a control valve to operate remote cylinders etc.

It is possible to operate a one way/single acting cylinder by tying the three point hitch down and tapping into the test port of the pump and operating the remote cylinder with the touch control handle but it is not accurate or good for the lift. When the remote cylinder etc reaches it's maximum extension the relief valve of the pump is opened and repeatedly doing this will quickly errode the relief valve components and then the lift will become weaker and weaker.

Does this help visualize what has been said?

http://web.umr.edu/~liou/ME459/Actuators/hydraulic.htm[/b]

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JMOR

10-16-2007 17:57:32

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to Joe T (CO), 10-16-2007 16:47:59

Thanks anyway, but not really as I believe that link is maybe NAA, not 8N, 9N. I do appreciate the thought. Dunks animation from Friends of Ferguson Heritage is a lot closer, even though simplified by leaving out both the check valve & over pressure relief. My only missing point of understanding comes from Zanes comment about erosion of overpressure relief when trying to use an external cylinder without an auxiliary open center control valve. For the life of me, I can't see why his external pump does not yield the same overpressure relief erosion, unless as the ram position is set by the "balancing act" of setting position control to let just part of external pump 's output hold ram position while the rest of the flow exits via the exhaust valve. In a nut shell, where does the external pump's output go when I lift to say 50% to 70% of full up and just hold that position?

I appreciate all your thoughts in trying to help me understand. With a little luck, all together, we might fill in the blanks.

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TheOldHokie

10-16-2007 18:20:00

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-16-2007 17:57:32

I'm gonna get me a pump and diagram the valve action - even if I have to drop the one in my 9N.
TOH

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JMOR

10-16-2007 20:48:55

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-16-2007 18:20:00

I think I can give you that, but it still won't answer the question of where the external pump flow goes when position is at say 70% of full up.

I have some excellent "x-ray" type views of the pump passages, so I'm pretty satisfied that I understand & can explain exactly how it all works as originally designed. It is just after the external pump addition that I'm puzzled. One clue is that HOBO said, "that without weight on the lift arms, they will go up, even with the control lever in down position" (not exact quote, but best I can recall, & the message is accurate). Under those conditions, the internal pump Intake valve is closed & the Exhaust valve is open and the external pump flow is enough to raise the lift even though the Exhaust valve is 'trying' to dump the external pump's flow.
Zane is probably enjoying all this and LHAO as we speculate!

Harry was pretty clever! His system isn't really what we know now as either a "close center" or " open center" type system. His scheme of using an Intake valve to starve the suction to the pump is for-sure a little different.
All interesting though!

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TheOldHokie

10-17-2007 05:45:41

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-16-2007 20:48:55

OK - like I said earlier I know nothing about the N'ards of these pumps.
My impression from looking at the drawings was that this is basically just a constant output piston pump. I thought the intake and exhaust valves worked just like the valves in a motor. The pump sucks up oil into the pump chambers through the intake valves on the intake cycle of the scotch yokes which push it out the other side through the exhaust valves on the pump (compression) stroke. The intake and exhaust valves cycle on each stroke of the yokes don't they? The control valve mounted in the base of the pump on the other hand directs the constant output flow to the work circuit (lift cylinder) in the raise position. In the neutral position it vents the output flow back to the sump and also acts as a check valve on the work circuit to prevent reverse flow (maintain the lift position). In the down position the control valve opens further and allows the oil in the work circuit to return to the sump.
If this is incorrect I'd very much like to know how the system works.

TOH

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TheOldHokie

10-17-2007 06:13:26

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Answering my own question in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-17-2007 05:45:41

OK - did some research in the archives. I see now that the pump is not constant output and that the control valve(s) shut off oil supply to the pump chambers. The 9N/2N has a single spool control valve and the 8N has two spools linked by a rocker to do the same thing. But where is the dang test port circuit in relation to the control spools(s) and their respective circuits?

TOH

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JMOR

10-17-2007 07:50:47

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-17-2007 06:13:26

OK, I had already composed this story before I read your last post, so after all that, I'm sending it anyway. See sketch of hydraulic circuit on test port question.

Hope this helps.

Stay in touch.
JMOR

Hang with me here, but I believe part of our (meaning everyone, I guess?) communications problem is nomenclature.

1) The FO-4 I&T manual refers to CONTROL VALVE for the 9N. It refers to the two "control" valves for the 8N as INTAKE CONTROL valve & EXHAUST CONTROL valve.
2) Same manual (for both 9N & 8N) refer to the pump valves (like those that you and I commonly talk about in an engine as Intake & Exhaust) as INLET VALVES & OUTLET VALVES.
3) In discussing these hydraulics, I find it clarifying to talk in more detail than to refer only to the CONTROL VALVE. It is actually two valves in one and I talk about those two functions. This CONTROL VALVE is doing exactly the same thing as the two (INTAKE CONTROL valve & EXHAUST CONTROL valve) of the 8N do. That is an INTAKE Control function & an EXHAUST Control function.

I can easily see the potential for a headache here! :)

In all of my discussions in these postings, I don't recall ever intentionally referring to the "INLET VALVES/OUTLET VALVES" of item 2 above. When I have used the terms 'Intake valve' and 'Exhaust valve', I have been careless and should have said, "Intake Control & Exhaust Control" valves. Even if I have slipped up and used the terms Inlet/ Outlet valves, I likely still was NOT referring to those of item 2 above, but intending INTAKE CONTROL & EXHAUST CONTROL. Sorry.

With all that in mind, on to the next part of your last post:
"The control valve mounted in the base of the pump on the other hand directs the constant output flow to the work circuit (lift cylinder) in the raise position. In the neutral position it vents the output flow back to the sump and also acts as a check valve on the work circuit to prevent reverse flow (maintain the lift position). In the down position the control valve opens further and allows the oil in the work circuit to return to the sump."

Don't get offended now, as I am just stating the direct facts. No attack/flaming intended.

1) It is not a constant output flow pump. The pump ONLY produces output flow when it can suck something in & that can only happen when the INTAKE CONTROL valve is open. Other wise it is just sucking against a capped off pipe, so to speak. The INTAKE CONTROL valve opens the path from pump suction to the sump/reservoir when the CONTROL VALVE on 9N is pushed forward/into the pump housing. On the 8N this would be when the INTAKE CONTROL valve is pushed forward into the housing and the EXHAUST CONTROL valve, via pivoting rocker lever, is pulled out/toward rear.
At this time, 8N's Exhaust Control valve is closed, preventing the dumping or exhausting of oil from the ram cylinder.
The same is true of 9N except that the function is accomplished by the opposite end of the "combination/dual function" CONTROL VALVE.
2) Neutral: The inlet to pump is shut off by INTAKE CONTROL valve (outside end of CONTROL VALVE of 9N), so there is no additional output flow from the pump since there is nothing for it to suck. (Note that it is not venting output flow back to the sump, nor is it acting as a check valve.) There is a CHECK VALVE. It is part of the Relief/Safety/Overpressure valve ASSEMBLY. This is actually two valves in one assembly. The part extending furtherest into the pump is the CHECK valve and the outermost part is the overpressure valve.
(Some I&T manual drawings actually show this as separate items, some as a single item...maybe old style/new style?).
3) The pump outlet is ALWAYS connected to the ram cylinder via Check valve. The CONTROL VALVE (valveS in 8N), does NOT disconnect pump outlet to ram cylinder. Yes, I know that is probably an eyebrow raiser, but what can I say? Lift position is being maintained by a closed CHECK VALVE, closed Relief valve (overpressure if you like, or Safety..you name it), AND the closed Exhaust Valve.
4) Down: INTAKE CONTROL valve remains closed, and EXHAUST CONTROL valve opens, EXHAUSTING the ram cylinder's oil back to the sump.

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TheOldHokie

10-17-2007 08:47:13

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to JMOR, 10-17-2007 07:50:47

I'm certainly not offended but could you expound on that third party image

- Inlet/Intake, Outlet/Exhaust - arrgh! Ok I'm up to speed and I think we are speaking the same language now - thank you. I also went back and read some of the archived exchanges from Llamas, tOTG, and Zane about this. TOTG had a mod for isolating the lift circuit from the rest of that mechanism altogether and controlling it with an external valve - I had his writeup on it once but I''ve lost it and tOTG's web site is long gone. I've posted in the past asking for someone with a copy to make it available but no one has come forward. I pretty much remember what he said to do and can probably reconstruct it from memory. It's a modestly aggresive mod to the top cover - probably not for the faint of heart or poorly equipped.

Back to the Live Thang - assume an 8N in position control mode.

As soon as the lift hits the top (or is set to an intermediate position) the position control mechanism is going to try and twiddle the valving on the fly to keep the lift at a constant height independent of the pressure relief condition. So as soon as the constant external pump flow starts to cause the lift to raise the exhaust valve will be cracked to cause it to lower - right? If the implement drops for some reason the exahust will begin to close and the choked off external flow will cause it to raise. The cycle repeats. Have we substituted erosion of the exhaust for the relief? And what happens in draft mode(aka on a 9N/2N)?

Perhaps this thread should be retitled "The blind leading the blind" third party image

TOH

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JMOR

10-17-2007 09:24:23

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-17-2007 08:47:13

Perhaps we should re-name it as you suggest. :)
However, if we stumble around long enough, we will probably fall into it!

I have seen mods where they insert a valve in the vertical tube between the pump & the lift cover. I believe it's primary purpose was to avoid the need to chain down the lift arms when powering cylinder on something like a front snow blade.

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TheOldHokie

10-17-2007 11:59:22

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Re: Answering my own question in reply to JMOR, 10-17-2007 09:24:23

JMOR said: (quoted from post at 09:24:23 10/17/07) Perhaps we should re-name it as you suggest. :)

However, if we stumble around long enough, we will probably fall into it!

I have seen mods where they insert a valve in the vertical tube between the pump & the lift cover. I believe it's primary purpose was to avoid the need to chain down the lift arms when powering cylinder on something like a front snow blade.

Yes after think about it I believe that's what it was for - to feed a remote circuit/valve. Nothing to do with live hydraulics. IIRC you installed a pipe plug in the top of the riser and drilled and tapped a port in the cover downline from the plug. You then routed the test port output to an externally mounted directional flow control valve. By setting the directional valve to divert test port flow to a secondary remote control valve you got a constant output from the pump without having to chain down the lift arms. Switch the directional to send the test port flow back into the 3pt circuit via the newly tapped port and you resumed normal 3pt operation.

Additionally by disconnecting the lift lingage to the internal control valves and adding the appropriate combination of remote spools you could run the lift and remote cylinder(s) at the same time.

TOH

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JMOR

10-18-2007 11:47:52

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TOH might like to see, re-see? in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-17-2007 11:59:22

George has more pics on gallery.

Author [expand] [Modern View] George Harris 12-09-2006 18:08:26
68.98.72.171
580387

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Well I posted a while back about my 8N that had been used to run an Everett trencher. It had a front blade on it that would raise and lower via lever that had been added alongside the touch control lever. But the 3-point didn't move. I took the lift cover off today. Many things came to light, some good, some bad. The good thing is, I found that I can have my 3-point as well as the auxiliary hydraulic control. There was a small valve that was being held down by a 1950's beer can opener. Raising that valve redirects hydraulic pressure to the 3-point in the lift cover. Lowering it directs the pressure out the port in the hollow stud in the top of the inspection cover on the right side. I don't know why it was clamped down. Maybe it kept creeping up. At any rate, I know how it works now and can use it to my advantage. I checked it by turning the PTO and actuating the valve and watching fluid flow. The bad news is, the 3-point lift cylinder and piston are wasted. Full of rust and pits. New parts, with the NAA O-ring piston are already on order. (sigh). I think this tractor was used as a trencher from day one as the lift parts showed no sign of wear, only rust. Oddly, my cylinder was busted in one place as was posted up recently. I have one question out of all this. Is the tube that transfers hydraulic pressure up to the lift cover supposed to extend through the case, up into the lift cover? Mine doesn't - it's more or less flush with the mounting surface. I'm wondering because if not, then the gasket has to bear the hydraulic pressure. I can't tell from the diagrams in the manual. BTW, I also posted before about the Sherman in the tractor. I now know it is a step-down (red), cable operated. I was able to fix the cable after I took the steering box off, without splitting the tractor. Image linked is of the valve I spoke of. Thanks, -George
� My 8N photo gallery. http://www.autoinsanity.com/pn/html/modules.php?set_albumName=album08&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=1

Untitled URL Link

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Dunk

10-14-2007 19:03:54

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correction in reply to Ross Pugh(NC), 10-14-2007 09:45:59

JMOR said: (quoted from post at 22:00:44 10/14/07) Intake kicks open, not exhaust at limit of travel.

Intake kicks CLOSED.

That is why it can knock, from the vacuum of not being able to suck fluid, but it wont hurt that pump like it can some. They usually call it caveatting when a pump is concerned (pulling a vacuum) it can be very bad on some pumps, but the N pump is designed for that.

But then you just never know when I am off my rocker...

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TheOldHokie

10-15-2007 04:53:48

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correction in reply to Dunk, 10-14-2007 19:03:54

One caveat there Dunk - that would be cavitating third party image

WRT the Live Thang now that I understand JMOR's question I am equally confused.
TOH

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JMOR

10-15-2007 14:45:23

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correction in reply to TheOldHokie, 10-15-2007 04:53:48

TOH,
I am going to go out on a limb & guess that Zane's answer "exhaust valve opens & oil is dumped back to reservoir thru exhaust valve" applies whether in 'hold' or 'drop'.(see response below). I don't see other options. I guess that in hold, exhaust it partially open, enough to hold ram & all excess is exhausted via valve, whereas without external pump, the exhaust valve would be closed during 'hold' position.

JMOR

10-14-2007 21:07:30
76.185.68.29
629403

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When using Zane Live Thang external pump feeding the test port, now when the lift ram reaches upper limit of lift & the control valve's Intake port kicks closed, then that takes care of the belly pump's output (since it can no longer suck in any oil), but now where does Zane's pump output go?

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ZANE

10-15-2007 04:53:36
64.12.116.145
629409

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Re: ? About lift failure in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 21:07:30 When the intake valve closes the exhaust valve opens and the oil is dumped back to reservoir through the exhaust valve.

Zane

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JMOR

10-15-2007 07:40:36
76.185.68.29
629437

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Re: ? About lift failure in reply to ZANE, 10-15-2007 04:53:36 True....when I want to lower, the exhaust opens, but what if I just want to hold position? Then isn't Intake closed & Exhaust closed? Now where does external pump flow go?

I don't know if Zane will add any more or not.

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TheOldHokie

10-15-2007 15:36:36

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That limb is getting crowded.... in reply to JMOR, 10-15-2007 14:45:23

JMOR I'm gonna get out on that limb with ya. Never had one of the pumps out or apart and as Sgt. Schultz would say "I know nothing!" With that caveat (get it Dunk third party image

I'd be disinclined to think that it's some kind of flow/pressure balancing act - to tough to get right. Perhaps the valving transitions go something like:

1) Control linkage returns valve to neutral position at full lift

2) At neutral position high pressure line to lift is still blocked but pump side of test port circuit is open via exhaust valve.

3) When three point linkage is moved to down position high pressure line to lift cylinder is opened to exhaust area.
The curious are still curious I guess.

TOH

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JMOR

10-14-2007 19:25:00

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correction in reply to Dunk, 10-14-2007 19:03:54

Yes! After multiple correction postings on my part, I think I finally said it right, but I think I'm then back to my original question.

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TheOldHokie

10-14-2007 14:55:40

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Re: Zane Thang relief? in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

1) Under normal conditions when the lift reaches it's full height the control linkage shuts the pump output down. Remove the right inspection cover and observe this behavior. The linkage goes "over center" as the lift comes to the top and the internal control valve moves back to the neutral position.

2) When you chain (or otherwise limit) the three point linkage from rising to it's full travel it will not shut off the pump and any EXCESS pressure is vented via the internal pressure relief valve.

3) If you restrain the lift arms and tap the test port a constant flow will be obtained from the test port (the internal linkage is restrained from moving over the top to shut off the pump). As long as that flow is not cut off and a separate return path to the sump is provided (i.e open center remote circuit operation on the test port) the relief valve will not be actuated. If however the test port circuit flow is closed off and the test port pressure builds to the internal relief pressure (1600 PSI ?) the excess flow will be vented via the internal relief valve and the aforementioned erosion will become an issue.
The key element is that the internal pump is basically a closed center setup. The internal control linkage is designed to shut off output from the pump when the 3pt lift is at or near it's full lift position. If you defeat that linkage and don't provide some alternate path for the pump output to return to the sump it will be vented by the relief valve. If you chain the arms down and feed an open center remote valve from the test port AND you provide a return path for the excess flow you have no problem. That's why I "invented" this:

third party image

Simple ehh?

TOH

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JMOR

10-14-2007 10:09:34

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 09:45:59

I forgot that the exhaust valve it kicked open when ram reaches limit of travel.

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JMOR

10-14-2007 18:00:44

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correction in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 10:09:34

Intake kicks open, not exhaust at limit of travel.

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JMOR

10-14-2007 18:56:13

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Re: Zane Thang relief?-NEVER MIND-correctionto corr in reply to JMOR, 10-14-2007 18:00:44

H&11! I might as well give up & go to bed! Or at least read before Submit!
It should read, Intake function of Control valve kicks Closed when ram reaches limit of lift, thus killing the pump output flow.

If anybody gives a rat's patottie!

At least that's what I think I want to say..until I read it again tomorrow.

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