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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem

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reddogge

11-08-2007 13:59:27




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9N, 6volt one wire generator just rebuilt and new cutout relay put in. Fired it up. Ammeter first read discharge then switched to charge, ran good. Shut it down to put antifreeze in it and polarized generator (forgot the first time). Ammeter read discharge when shut down but then went to 0. Now it won't fire at all and ammeter doesn't move when cranking. What could be wrong now?




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GB in MT.

11-09-2007 05:09:34




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to gahorN, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  


To add to what Sounder said; If polarizing is such a myth, then why would the I&T FO-4 sevice manual have two, that's (2) full pagagraphs on Re-assembly & Polarizing for the generator!!!???

And, yes I was the one that posted this pic. of the V/Reg., with the polarizing instructions printed right on it.!!!

A "myth" for polarizing?????
Until it is proved a "myth" to me, and proved that the professionals, do not know what they are talking about, I, for one will advocate "Polarization" to anyone dealing with the electrical system, on these "N" series tractors.

I also would hope that, any "NEWBIE" on this forum does not listen to anyone that says other-wise!!!!! !

Polarization..... A MYTH???..... I don't think so!!!!! !

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Gary :!:
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OKDAD

11-08-2007 23:07:34




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to duey, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
Got me wondering about the "myth" myself. Did some research and found this explaination.....

Link

Makes sense to this old engineer. The naysayers can just keep replacing cutout relays and regulators.

Personally I perfer a 12v Delco alternator.



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jeremywelch4

11-09-2007 06:31:00




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to OKDAD, 11-08-2007 23:07:34  
i just bought a ford 8n the alt system has been converted to 12 volt do you know how the wireing goes to the starter relay? it was disconnected when i bought it and the guy did not know how it goes. there are two small wires not hooked up that he states goes to the relay and they have small connectors but i don"t know which wire goes where. is it like a ford truck where the wire goes to the battery side of the relay?

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jeremywelch4

11-09-2007 07:44:13




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to jeremywelch4, 11-09-2007 06:31:00  
thank you i will try this and let ypou know how it goes



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Bob

11-09-2007 07:38:55




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to jeremywelch4, 11-09-2007 06:31:00  
Third Party Image

NOTE: If your's is a "front-mount distributor", one or more resistors will ALWAYS be used in the power lead to the ignition coil.

The starter solenoids are "odd", by today's standards, cause they need to have the little terminal GROUNDED (by the tranny-top neutral safety stert switch) to activate the solenoid, just the opposite of how most modern starter solenoids are activated.

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Dunk

11-08-2007 19:05:52




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
Are you sure you got the wires on the ammeter gauge in the proper polarity?

Mine is the ole loop type, and I have mine in backwards, it shows discharge to mean charge.

But you know what???

In my weired way of thinking it is a positive ground.

SO, why shouldn't negative be charging????



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reddogge

11-08-2007 16:47:49




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
Well, the battery was charged when shut off. I saw no smoking wires when the ammeter quickly went to 0. It turns the motor quickly but no fire. Darkness made me come in. I'm at a loss now how to proceed here and am getting more confused reading about polarizing. Tried to use pliers to spark jump the terminals on the cutout but no little spark. That thing was fairly expensive too. Please try to help an electrical dummy now to try to get it running in step by step fashion. Thanks.

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Bob

11-08-2007 16:55:13




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 16:47:49  
With a meter or test light, check for power to the bottom terminal on the junction block, the junction block side of the cutout, and the ignition switch... ONE terminal should be "hot" with the switch "off", BOTH should be "hot" with the switch "ON".

Then, on to the resistor (both terminals), and on to the coil.

It's POSSIBLE you just have a broken wire or a poor connection somewhere.

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reddogge

11-08-2007 18:59:40




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to Bob, 11-08-2007 16:55:13  
Bob,
Thanks, I'll try to look at it tomorrow. If I can't get to it tomorrow then next Tuesday. Where exactly is the junction block on a 9N?

Also what I'm having trouble understanding is how the trouble with the generating system I may have caused may be affecting the ignition system. Shouldn't it still run but not charge?



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Bob

11-08-2007 19:23:28




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 18:59:40  
If whatever happened to the charging system involved the wiring from the starter switch to the junction block, and on to the starter switch, there'll be NO power to the ignition system.

You will find that out with the test light.

Or, PERHAPS, the points or coil just happened to coincidently fail at the same time as the charging system. The way things go, that wouldn't surprise me, either!



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reddogge

11-08-2007 15:59:22




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
Here's the rub. It was running great and charging. I shut it down. If the points or other wiring burnt wouldn't it have shut itself down first?



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Bob

11-08-2007 16:11:41




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 15:59:22  
I am talking about the points INSIDE the cutout.

IF they were stuck when the engine was shut down, the battery will be drained through the cutout and generator, heating them up, as well as any and all wires and connections in between.



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Bob

11-08-2007 14:31:36




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
NEVER start the engine after installing a new generator, without polarizing it first.

Likely, when you started it and it was discharging, it was "charging backwards", and burnt and stuck the cutout points.

When you shut it down, it either simply drained the battery through the stuck cutout and the generator, or you burned up some wiring and/or the generator and cutout.

Check that the battery is charged, and connected with the desired polarity, (it was (+) ground from the factory).


(IF the tractor is set up (+) ground AND the rebuilder knew what he was doing, and tested the rebuilt generator to charge (+) ground, it should have worked, EVEN IF you forgot to polarize the generator.)

If the battery is discharged, you'll have to disconnect the shorted cutout, and charge the battery, then it SHOULD start.

If the battery IS still charged, you'll have to check the wiring, to see where the smoke was let out.

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36 coupe

11-08-2007 16:05:41




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to Bob, 11-08-2007 14:31:36  
The cutout is a magnetic device.do some bench testing,you will find the polarize bit is a fable.When the battery connects to the generator the battery has far more power than the generator.The battery rules....



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soundguy

11-08-2007 19:56:37




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to 36 coupe, 11-08-2007 16:05:41  
Polarizing is only a myth in your head.

I have some nice literature direct from the manufacturer showing how toy properly polarize a system.

Someone else also posted some polarization instructions that were embossed right on the regulator can for their charging system.

Now.. if polarizing was a myth.. why do you suppose that companies went to the trouble to publish info in their expensive service manuals on how to do it properly.. and what can happen if yuo do it improperly... Further.. with parts costs as they are.. why pay to emboss the metal can on a regulator with explicit instructions and a diagram if it was a myth? The answer of course, is what i stated in my first line... polarizing is not a myth.. except to you maybee.

soundguy

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Bob

11-08-2007 16:13:09




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to 36 coupe, 11-08-2007 16:05:41  
Yes, you are CORRECT, the battery RULES.

HOWEVER, the poor little cutout is between the battery and the generator, and OFTEN suffers the consequences of the battery "ruling"!



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36 coupe

11-09-2007 06:24:24




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to Bob, 11-08-2007 16:13:09  
If the cut out spring is weak the cutout will stay closed.Regardless of polarity.There have been a lot of regulators being ruined by polarizing turkeys.A brand new generator will need some current thru the field coils one time to create some residual magnetism.Regardless of what polarity is used the battery will cause a heavy current to flow that will over come the weaker generator current.Motor Manuals give a few lines to polarizing.My Ford service bulletins cover generators well, no mention of polarizing.I started working on a cutdown Model A in the early 50s.It had been sitting with a cracked head for 10 years.When we got it running my Dad looked at the ammeter and said its charging, generators ok.This disagrees with the idea that a generator must be polarized every time a battery is disconnected.I did all the no charge work when I worked at the Ford garage.Never polarized.The OHV Fords put the generator down low so you had to get under the car to work on them.I got real good at troublshooting no charge problems then.I still do some work on tractor starters and generators.

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reddogge

11-09-2007 08:46:09




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to 36 coupe, 11-09-2007 06:24:24  
Thanks for the advice. I couldn't work on it today and will start again Tuesday. It may have been vapor locked and then I flooded it and then darkness came. We'll see.



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36 coupe

11-08-2007 14:27:16




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 Re: Rebuilt Gen ,new cutout relay and problem in reply to reddogge, 11-08-2007 13:59:27  
Check your points,forget the generator for now.



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