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'49 8N won't go after 12v conversion

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E.S.Blofeld

12-11-2007 12:10:12




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I recently bought a '49 8N and in the interest of biting off more than I can chew, went beyond the usual tune up stuff and bought a 12v conversion kit.
I noticed when disassembling the old wiring harness someone along the way bypassed the ammeter...

I re-installed the wiring as per the wiring diagram, hooking the ammeter back up. I dropped in a new 12v battery... when I hooked the battery up there was sparking (more than usual), smoking and it looked lit a bit of the metal between the cable and post fused together and the wire leading from the hot side of the solenoid to the ammeter visibly moved. I'm not a wiring expert, but I'm thinking that was a bad thing (like the ammeter was grounding out or something). I then bypassed the ammeter, connecting the appropriate wires to each other.
I reconnected the battery and only got the usual minimal spark. I turned the ignition on and hit the starter button and nothing happened. No cranking, no whirring, no clicking, no nothing.

I checked the wiring with the test light and almost everything looks OK. The only thing that doesn't look right is when I put the light on the ignition wire (leading to the starter button) of the side of the starter solenoid (not the one where the battery is hooked up and not the one attached to the starter itself), it shows current going to the solenoid at all times.
Is the solenoid supposed to be this way? It seems to me that power should only go to that post on the solenoid when the starter button is pushed. In other words, I'm thinking I fried the solenoid because the ammeter was grounding out.

Am I on the right track, or should I be looking for something else?

(The engine did crank before I started all this, but the carb was bad so it didn't run very well. I have also replaced the carb. My tractor is a front mount distributor, and I purchased the kit from Yesterday's Tractor Co. which included a one wire alternator with built in regulator.)

Thanks in advance for your help, and sorry for the long post....

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E.S.Blofeld

12-14-2007 12:55:45




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
Well, I did make sure to install the battery with a negative ground, so that isn't the issue. I think the sparking etc is from the ammeter being grounded out, which I have now simply bypassed by hooking those wires up directly to each other. And for clarification the smoking and sparks came from the battery post, nothing happened at the alternator (thankfully).

I do get power to the coil and everywhere else it should go.

The previous owner put in an alternate starter button, which worked before. I am wondering if that may be the starting issue. I'll order a new original type to find out.

I also took the advice and ran a jumper cable from the battery directly to the starter to make sure it would work. It turned over about three times slowly and then stopped, as though the battery was dead. It is a brand new battery, though. Just to make sure, I put the battery on the charger overnight and tried again. Same result. I put the battery back on the charger, and it indicated a 'full' charge after just a few minutes (in other words, it looks like it only discharged enough to crank the engine a bit and therefore didn't need much juice to get back to where it needed to be).

So this raised the question of whether or not the starter may be bad as well... Any thoughts?

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tcarlson

12-12-2007 04:40:25




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
I don't know if it makes a difference, but 12v conversion kit goes to neg (-) ground and the 6v is positive (+) ground. Can hooking battery up backwards fry something?



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soundguy

12-12-2007 07:02:19




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to tcarlson, 12-12-2007 04:40:25  
Yes.. if you install a 12v neg grnd alternator in a machine. then hook the battery up as positive ground.. then you almost immediatly destroy the alternator.. takes about a second, and makes an impressive pop-snapple-spark, and them some magic smoke may or may not shoot out... After that it is rebuild time.. or to the store for a reman.. etc.. Polarity means alot to solid state electronics...

Soundguy

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OKDAD

12-11-2007 19:19:17




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to Dan in CO, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
ES...Since no one has mentioned it I will. Are you aware there are two types of ammeters on the Ns. Original meters are inductive. There is a loop on the back that the wire passes thru. Replacement meters have insulated mounting posts that the wires connect to. Connecting the wires to the mounting posts on inductive meters shorts them to ground. HTH



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soundguy

12-11-2007 16:37:52




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
I agree with the others.. the 8n solenoid is 'hot' all the time and just looking for ground from the thumb button.

Also.. it is likely the ammeter was bypassed because it's insulation grommets were bad.. and thus allowing shorts.

If you are getting no power to the t coil.. follow the wires from the key switch and find out where you burnt them up at...

soundguy



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JMOR

12-11-2007 12:40:49




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
third party image

This pic was borrowed from Bob & modified to suit and I believe it will put Old & Jack's words somewhat into a picture.
HTH



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Jack - Illinois

12-11-2007 12:34:32




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
The bracket holding the ampmeter to the dash probably has the insulators missing that should insulate the bracket. That makes the terminals ground potentual - hence dead short.

The small terminal on the solenoid is hot until you push the starter button. This is unless someone has replaced the solenoid with a non original one. If you are still using the original starter button by the gear shift it is original. That button only creates a ground when you push it.

Not sure what is your problem, but I don't think it is your solenoid. You can use a single jumper cable from the starter side of the solenoid to the other side of the solenoid. If it runs the starter it is the solenoid. If not take the jumper cable back to the battery itself. If this makes it turn the that battery cable is bad. If it still hasn't turned over,look at the battery ground cable for bad connections or burned into.

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old

12-11-2007 12:24:33




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 Re: '49 8N won't go after 12v conversion in reply to E.S.Blofeld, 12-11-2007 12:10:12  
Well on the fords the soliniod sort of works back wards. I.E. you ground out the start post to get the soliniod to spin the engine over. As far as hooking up the battery with the key off you should NOT get any sparks. Either way it sounds like you may have let the smoke or of the soliniod. What you can do to test that is take a heavy as in old battery cable etc. and with it OUT OF GEAR, short across the 2 big posts on the soliniod. If it turns over then you know you smoked the soliniod. By the way if you turn on the key at the same time again WITH IT OUT OF GEAR it should start or at least ry to start

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